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どんな時どう使う issues) - gyuujuice - 2010-08-31
So I have been working though the book up to chapter 4 inputting the information like so:
Front)
この文には専門家向けの用語が多いので、一般の人はわかりにくい
Back)
（いっぱん）
On the back-side of the card I just have the readings with the words I don't know. (If I don't know the meaning I just look it up again.)
I have been studying this book almost completely for the grammar not the vocabulary. But I stuck a rock. Both 1級 2級 are in the same chapter, I was thinking maybe it would be best to go through the 2級 points first and then 1級. But obviously the book doesn't make this convinient as both parts are needed for the quizes and workbook. I also have 完全マスター文法, which is only the 2級. How can study these books most effectively?
So I'm thinking of
1) Learn all the 2級 grammar and example sentences
2) Go though 完全マスター grammar and example sentences
3) Go though all the quizes and activities in 完全マスター
4) Learn all the 1級 grammar and example sentences
5) Go through all the 知っていますか？使えますか？quizes
6) Go through the どんな時 workbook
7) Go through the books again for review using this time to actually study the unknown vocabulary. :\
Grammar is my weakest area in Japanese. It's holding me back and I am having a hard time studying it. Any advice for those who have studied grammar with 完全 or どんな時 would be greatly aprpeciated.
どうぞよろしく御願いします！m（ー＿ー）m
どんな時どう使う issues) - Javizy - 2010-08-31
Maybe something grammar related on your flashcards would be slightly helpful in learning grammar. How do you tell the difference between 向けに・向きに or ことから・ことだから, or what's wrong with 来たなり, for example? I have the syntax and explanations on my flashcards, and find the JLPT questions I do simple enough. You could easily pass a card you misinterpreted simply because you have no way of checking whether you were right or not, and this means failed questions in the JLPT, and misunderstandings and botched sentences in real-life.
I'm not convinced by the 'I'm so cool I don't need anything on the answer side of my flashcard' approach. The 30-sec process of typing out the 1-2 line explanation itself will go a long way to helping you memorise the expression, and then you have something to check when you're reviewing. The premade 2級 spreadsheet file has everything included already, so start reviewing it and see if it makes an improvement.
Doing practice questions is a good way to identify and improve on problem areas as well. There's an app on iTunes with about 700 questions for each level that I've found helpful. KM has a bunch too. Try doing a certain number per day as part of your reviews. Japanese grammar is ridiculously well-behaved compared to other languages, so you don't have much excuse
どんな時どう使う issues) - coverup - 2010-08-31
Agreed with Javizy. I would say if you are planning on taking 2kyuu in December go ahead and get grammar and kanji out of the way first, keep up with those SRS reps and give yourself ample time to internalize the grammar points so they will be second nature on test day.
My grammar cards from どんな時 have the example sentence on the front and then the abbreviated Japanese explanation of the grammar point on the back (or the shortest English version if I didn't understand that JP one). I don't bother typing the whole English explanation out. I found a spreadsheet for 完全マスター and found that faster for making cards so I added the remaining points from that when I was in a rush before the test. Either book is fine.
The important thing is to comprehend the meaning and see what kind of usages it has and then expose yourself to them over a long period of time to internalize them.
I feel that the grammar questions on JLPT 2 are pretty clear-cut. It may have been my lowest scoring section but I passed with 83% overall.
If, on the other hand, you want to use these grammar points and not just understand them and be able to win by process of elimination on a test, I have no advice for that. I kind of follow the idea that you learn the meaning of something, and then for an interval of time observe how it is used, and then one day mysteriously you can use it yourself. Anything else leads to confusion and misuses - i.e., your usage may be correct but it isn't the appropriate time to use it, makes you sound pompous or grandparent-like, etc. All those shortcuts that are typically taken in language courses/classes just don't work as far as I am concerned.
どんな時どう使う issues) - kerosan41 - 2010-08-31
Javizy Wrote:...There's an app on iTunes with about 700 questions for each level that I've found helpful. KM has a bunch too.Could you share the name of the app? I'm always interested in a good learning application.
どんな時どう使う issues) - Taurus - 2010-08-31
Javizy Wrote:How do you tell the difference between 向けに・向きに or ことから・ことだから, or what's wrong with 来たなり, for example?That's a pretty good question. I wonder if there's a list of these sorts of similar but different grammar points somewhere - I think it would be a really useful resource for learning more precise usage of grammar in general.
どんな時どう使う issues) - gyuujuice - 2010-08-31
Thank you everyone for your responces.
So I'm changing my cards so on the front side the 振り仮名／ruby-text will be in () so I can put the basic Japanese description on the back-side. I never thought of combing mutiple example senteces of the same grammar point.
"How do you tell the difference between 向けに・向きに or ことから・ことだから, or what's wrong with 来たなり, for example?"
There are some pointers in the book telling when to use which point. (the ties, pencils amoung other symbols represent this. But you probably knew this.)
I have looked and asked and sent emails concerning the spreadsheet file. But what I got instead was a stalker e-mail that really creeped me out and threated my sister. (No joke) 困ったなー
Thank you everyoen for your help!
どんな時どう使う issues) - rich_f - 2010-08-31
向けに・向きに are covered as two different topics in 完全マスター2, pg. 62, #107 and #108.
向けに, according my teacher, means "suited for," while 向きに means more "designed for." Think of a theme park that's suited for kids, compared to one designed for kids. That kind of thing. (My copy of 完全マスター2 is covered in notes.)
I picked up どんな時, but decided to skip it in favor of 完全マスター2, for a few reasons:
1. The JLPT prep class I take uses it (which is huge-- native language Japanese teacher goes over the grammar points and points out the fiddly bits);
2. There's already a spreadsheet out there for ease of Anki use;
3. Almost all of the grammar bits can be found in the どんな時 dictionary, with example sentences.
4. You can also find really good example sentences that cover the exact same points in 45日間で基礎からわらかる日本語能力試験対策２級文法 (ISBN:978-4-384-05570-2) + Engl/CHN/Viet/KOR translations of stuff. Less unfamiliar stuff in these sentences, so you don't have to flunk grammar sentences for kanji. (And you can learn Kanji separately.)
Another thing I do-- when I test grammar bits, I highlight the grammar bits in red, so I pay attention to them. I also add at least 4 sentences per definition. So far, so good.
I like the 45日間 book. It's broken into 8 weeks, each week has 7 days' worth of grammar. A test at the end of each week. That sort of thing. There's also a drill book (ISBN 978-4-384-0557109) for 950 yen that's full of, well, exercises and drills.
Something like that would be perfect for Cloze deletion cards.
どんな時どう使う issues) - Taurus - 2010-09-01
(I wasn't actually asking what the difference was between 向けに・向きに, by the way - I was just wondering if there was a list of grammar points that might potentially be confused with others because if there is it might be a good thing to add to my anki cards - just a line on the back of the card saying something like, 'not to be confused with 向けに'.)
どんな時どう使う issues) - pm215 - 2010-09-01
The Dictionary of Basic/Intermediate/Advanced Grammar entries often have sections giving comparisons with other bits of grammar with similar meanings (for instance the entry for やいなや spends six and a half pages comparing with とたん、と同時に、とすぐ、たらすぐ、なり、が早いか and 瞬間に.)
richf Wrote:1. The JLPT prep class I take uses it (which is huge-- native language Japanese teacher goes over the grammar points and points out the fiddly bits);Yes; a lot of my issues with KM2 go away as soon as you have somebody actively teaching it who can fill in the detail that KM2 skips or summarises.
coverup Wrote:The important thing is to comprehend the meaning and see what kind of usages it has and then expose yourself to them over a long period of time to internalize them.Yep. My suggestion is to make sure you at least intellectually understand the grammar point before you put it into the SRS. The SRS can help with the 'exposure' aspect but this doesn't work so well if you didn't really know what it meant to start with.
Quote:I feel that the grammar questions on JLPT 2 are pretty clear-cut. It may have been my lowest scoring section but I passed with 83% overall.Also true, and true for JLPT1 as well, I think. Grammar is the easiest section to improve your score on with targeted study if you didn't already know most of the grammar points they look for.
どんな時どう使う issues) - Javizy - 2010-09-01
My point about 向けに・向きに was that you could end up confusing them or missing the finer details if you don't have some way of checking. Syntax is just as important, although the practice questions really help with that.
gyuujuice Wrote:So I'm changing my cards so on the front side the 振り仮名／ruby-text will be in () so I can put the basic Japanese description on the back-side. I never thought of combing mutiple example senteces of the same grammar point.You can just add a new field or two to your model instead of putting the readings on the question side.
どんな時どう使う issues) - gyuujuice - 2010-09-01
Javizy,
"You can just add a new field or two to your model instead of putting the readings on the question side."
Are you saying add another side to the flashcards? So a three sided flashcard...interesting.
どんな時どう使う issues) - Javizy - 2010-09-01
kerosan41 Wrote:こっちやJavizy Wrote:...There's an app on iTunes with about 700 questions for each level that I've found helpful. KM has a bunch too.Could you share the name of the app? I'm always interested in a good learning application.
I just found this too. It says it has all the 2級 tests since 1991 (1級 version also available). At 500kb, it can't have the listening section though. I'm going to try it out anyway.
There's also this one, which appears to be a basic list of N2 grammar with meaning and example sentences.
Edit: 真題二級 only contains kanji/vocabulary questions and it's twice the price of JLPT Exercise, which has grammar too.
どんな時どう使う issues) - gyuujuice - 2010-09-01
Great links, I need to get an ipod/phone.