is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar?

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - Printable Version

+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The Japanese language (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-10.html)
+--- Thread: is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? (/thread-6225.html)

Pages: 1 2

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - Zon70 - 2010-08-20

like going to tae kim's grammar site or some random grammar book? The reason being is I do not like grammar, and honestly I try reading a book that explains japanese grammar and I just don't get it because really, it uses words that I dont even know in english. I never took a grammar class in school so I dont even know what a particle is, i think i only really know what a noun and adjective is. I have no idea what pronouns, adverbs, imperatives mean. So would i be able to learn kind of like the AJATT way? However the only thing i dont like about that method is the monolingual sentences...simply because I have no idea how to do them. If I somehow magically figure out how to do monolingual sentences do you think I would be good if I never touched a grammar book intended for learners of Japanese? I took a Japanese class 2 semesters at a community college and surprisingly I did well 3.5 both semesters and doing good on tests with a 3.5 and not a 4.0 because I had never heard of RTK before and I absolutely was bad at kanji. However Im not taking those classes anymore cause the books we used Genki series. Was way too formal for me. Even I knew that in japanese not every sentence ended with です。

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - ocircle - 2010-08-20

If the grammar doesn't rub well with you, ignore it until you feel like you need it.

I've been watching dramas in mandarin with only a basic understanding of Mandarin grammar (basically I know how to say "X is Y" "X is not Y", "X has this-many Z" ..etc) because I don't know enough words to compose a sentence. When I pick up about a hundred words spoken, I'll start to study how to read and write.

At this point I think it would be counter-productive for myself to really hunker down and try to decifer what every single thing says, and how it goes together. I'm just "shopping around" for a new language to tackle, afterall, since I already know all the languages I need to know to function in this society.

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - quincy - 2010-08-20

I don't think you need to study it in depth, but knowing the basics will save you a lot of frustration later on. Compared to the amount of vocabulary you'll learn, there's not that many rules, and basic Japanese grammar is as simple as it gets.

And for god's sake figure out what an adverb is!

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - yudantaiteki - 2010-08-20

It's possible, but it tends to be less efficient because you have to figure all the patterns out by yourself. Although it depends a bit on exactly what you mean by "formally learning grammar" -- I've found from past discussions when people say studying grammar isn't necessary, they often have different ideas of what studying grammar means. I think that literally avoiding any grammar explanation is a bad idea, and the fact that you don't know what the grammatical terms means just means you need to learn the grammatical terms, not that you should find a way to avoid them. If you don't know how to talk about grammar at all, it's hard to ask questions about what you don't understand, and understand the answers you're given.

(using です and ます is not particularly formal; most Japanese people living in Japan who are not children or old people will use です/ます style on a daily basis assuming they're speaking standard Japanese.)

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - ta12121 - 2010-08-20

Best example is getting a grammar point but a lot of examples of it. Also getting it from a native-sources(not the pre-minded typical sentences, but from real sources(news,drama scripts,etc)

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - kazelee - 2010-08-20

Learn those English grammar points first. They are pretty simple, if you're willing to try. As much as I like to have fun while learning, at some point there comes a times when you have to do the not so fun stuff in order to progress further.

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - Javizy - 2010-08-20

Just Google "parts of speech" or something. I think there's 12 in English, and they're all fairly easy to learn from examples. It's basically a case of learning 12 new words, and you said you already know two. That's all you need to begin with.

As you progress, you learn the grammatical concepts as you go. I didn't know about intransitive/transitive verbs, passive/active voice, causative etc when I started.

Personally, I think that basic grammar is the most difficult and warrants the most attention. You have to learn how to express concepts you just learnt as they apply to a foreign language that you have no grounding in. You can learn the kind of obscure crap contained in N1 like vocabulary, but you really need to understand what's going on to begin with or your Japanese will likely end up fundamentally flawed.

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - liosama - 2010-08-20

As javizy said, you're not the only one to fall short on knowing grammatical lingo. You don't really need to know the meanings of such words anyway. I still need to occasionally check up terms that I thought I 'knew', what's important is knowing the JAPANESE function of the expression/grammar.
That's the heart of grammar, knowing the implication, not knowing the label of that implication. Knowing nomenclature only helps you talk about grammar (or anything for that matter) universally to other specialists in that field, but it certainly won't help you learn/understand an aspect of grammar any better or any worse than someone who doesn't know such labels.

So what I'm trying to get at is you are putting up unnecessary barriers for yourself. Not knowing what 'particle' means won't stop you from understanding the function of の、は、で、と. They are just tiny bits of grammar that fill in the gaps, accept it and move on. Likewise with the rest of them.

That being said, they are helpful to know, quick google shouldn't hurt too much --> http://englishplus.com/grammar/glossary.htm

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - mentat_kgs - 2010-08-20

Not only it is possible as it may be the best way to do it.

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - Anna B - 2010-08-20

Grammar's a specialized language necessary for explaining language structures. You can also show structure by example without referring to grammar. I personally prefer using both.

You might want to check out "English Grammar for Students Learning Japanese" http://www.amazon.com/English-Grammar-Students-Japanese-Learning/dp/0934034168]

It's basic English grammar compared with the same structures in Japanese. It starts with the simplest concepts (nouns, verbs) and gradually gets more complex (if you want to go there), but all the explanations are clear and simple, the example sentences are short, and no topic is more than 2-4 pages long, so it's not overwhelming.

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - yudantaiteki - 2010-08-20

Learning what the terms mean for English isn't necessarily as useful because the terms don't really work all that well for English and it doesn't have much to do with Japanese.

Quote:Not knowing what 'particle' means won't stop you from understanding the function of の、は、で、と.

But it can affect other areas -- は and も can go after particles, but how do you explain that if you don't have the word "particle" to talk about it? Explanations are much more convenient if you have a small set of words you can use to talk about grammatical categories (native speakers all have these categories in their heads even if they can't explain them). And explicitly studying some grammar will help you internalize the structures more quickly.

I will never understand why this community recommends a book that's 99% in English to learn the kanji, but then suddenly when it comes to grammar, English is evil and you should be all monolingual as soon as possible. For Heisig, it doesn't matter that kids don't learn kanji that way, but when it comes to grammar, suddenly it's important to do it "like kids do" (even though the person is never actually recommending the way that kids learn). One of the basic principles of Heisig's book is that you *shouldn't* learn things the way kids do; that you should use the advantages you have as an adult to speed up the process -- studying grammar follows the same idea.

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - Mushi - 2010-08-20

If you don't really like or understand grammar, and you think it's a waste of time, then you may very well not be ready.

What'll probably happen later on is that your vocabulary will improve beyond your grammar level, and it'll start irritating you that:

1. Sentences are ambiguous and confusing because you can't readily tell whether statements are hypothetical or factual, in the past or in the future, etc.

2. Even though you know many words, you can't make conversation because you don't know what order you should put the words in, and how you should connect them together.

When you start to notice that enough that you want to take action, that's when you'll be receptive to grammar and ready to study it.

As for me personally, I haven't formally studied Japanese grammar. Right now, I'm concentrating on kanji.

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - Womacks23 - 2010-08-20

It depends on what you consider to be formally learning grammar.

I mean, you can learn Japanese without ever really going through a grammar book in detail. But eventually a time will come up when you have to look up what (insert grammar point) means. It will also become seriously important if you ever want to do any substantial writing in Japanese.

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - theBryan - 2010-08-21

Yeah sure--if by not learning grammar you mean looking it up on a website or in a book. I've have a friend of a friend--yeah anecdotal, I know--that came to Japan not knowing Japanese and absorbed it pretty much by listening to her friends talk and imitating them, just like a baby would, I'm sure Katsumoto would be proud. Anyways, after five years of hanging out with the rockabillies--those that are left--of Harajuku she can speak great with them up on all the slang and everything but if she watches NHK she doesn't have a clue whats going on.

So I guess the moral of that story is yes you can learn a language with no formal grammar, but it may not be the most efficient. Japanese seems to be a very regular language, that is it follows the general grammars rules fairly well. So in this case, sucking it up and logging onto Tae Kim to read up on something you don't quite understand may save you a lot of trouble.

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - Daichi - 2010-08-21

I think it's very possible. According to Anti-moon, you can learn grammar through enough natural exposure to a grammar rule. I do remember Khatzumoto had a post about how he used grammar books for sentence mining, so he had a place to start getting exposure from.

My guess is your looking at a lot more exposure if you completely ignore the rules. I think some basic knowledge of grammar would probably help you quite a bit, so you can at least understand basic sentences.

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - bizarrojosh - 2010-08-21

I agree with yudantaiteki. I would also like to add that if you don't understand grammar then it's going to be really hard to produce sentences in the long run while not sounding like a complete foreigner. What I mean is that when you speak if you are using the wrong particle or not conjugating the verbs correctly (I know you said you didn't understand what these grammar words mean in English, but if you can't take 30 minutes to look up what these mean then learning *another* language might not be for you when you can't function in your own...) it's always going to color your language with a foreign tint. Just get it right and understand why you should do it that way. I'm not suggesting that you spend all your time on grammar, but seriously, will it really hurt you to do grammar study like once or twice a week?

This post might sound really condescending, and I'm not trying to be, but I'm just a bit shocked that some might try avoiding grammar because they "can't" understand grammar in their language or that it's not the way that we naturally learn a language as kids.

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - iSoron - 2010-08-21

Zon70 Wrote:The reason being is I do not like grammar

You do realize that the grammar books we, second language learners, use look nothing like the grammar books native students use at school, right? Taking Portuguese as example, a typical grammar aimed at natives will give you a lengthy explanation about how to correctly distinguish between "orações coordenadas sindéticas explicativas (eg. Because this is a library, be quiet)" and "orações subordinadas adverbiais causais (eg. Because this is a library, it has books)", but it won't tell you what's the difference in nuance between "me diga (tell me)" and "pode me dizer? (can you tell me?)". A grammar for second language learners certainly will.

A good Japanese grammar will not spend chapters talking about useless terminology. It will briefly define some essential terms, then spend chapters talking about what speech patterns are available, how they are actually used, and how similar patterns differ in nuance. I think they are invaluable resources. Discarding them outright is a mistake.

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - TheVinster - 2010-08-21

I can't even figure out my own native language's grammar if I specifically study it. I don't like grammar either, so I think it's essential to have a lot of examples. Honestly in English class I dreaded when they gave us sheets telling us to find something like a preposition or what not. I'm so bad.

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - yudantaiteki - 2010-08-21

Daichi Wrote:I think it's very possible. According to Anti-moon, you can learn grammar through enough natural exposure to a grammar rule.

Do not trust anything antimoon says with regards to grammar. The writers of that site spent years taking English in school, where they learned a lot of grammar. Even though they don't acknowledge it, their advice is geared primarily towards people who have background in a language but still can't really use it to do what they want, or they've studied a language in school but don't feel like they have functional ability in it.

Many grammar guides do not really require you to know much terminology. The DBJG, for instance, uses some simple grammatical terms but the examples often make it clear what they're talking about even if you aren't completely sure of the terms. For instance, in the まで section, they list three ways that まで can pattern. One of them is "Vinf・nonpast まで". Even if "Vinf・nonpast" is gibberish to you, when you look at the two examples directly under that (話すまで and 食べるまで) it should be clear what form they're talking about. Their discussion of まで also includes ten example sentences. Maybe people tend to associate grammar with long, dry English explanations but not all grammar guides are like that. Any grammar dictionary or guide worth using will have many examples for each grammar point in addition to explanations.

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - masaman - 2010-08-21

The things I know about English grammar are, noun, verb, pronoun, article, adjective, adverb... that's about it, and they were enough for me to become being able to work in an English environment, so yeah, you don't really need to know all the grammar words. I did take 200 hours worth of ESL classes though, and they probably showed me different grammar patterns in the class with different sets of hands on practices. Reading grammar books to memorize grammar rules isn't much of a help in terms of actually using the language, but doing hands on practices would probably help you. You don't have to stick with text books for that though, if it's not your cup of tea. You have Internet, and you can do all the practices you need if you are creative enough.

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - sheetz - 2010-08-21

I'm confused. The OP has taken 2 semesters of Japanese classes using Genki, receiving good grades in the process, and yet claims to have not formally studied grammar? Just because one doesn't use a book called "Exhaustive Study of Japanese Grammar" doesn't mean one hasn't studied grammar. Even if OP isn't able to define what a "particle" is surely s/he must have been able to form basic sentences using them after two semesters of Genki?

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - Zon70 - 2010-08-21

sheetz Wrote:I'm confused. The OP has taken 2 semesters of Japanese classes using Genki, receiving good grades in the process, and yet claims to have not formally studied grammar? Just because one doesn't use a book called "Exhaustive Study of Japanese Grammar" doesn't mean one hasn't studied grammar. Even if OP isn't able to define what a "particle" is surely s/he must have been able to form basic sentences using them after two semesters of Genki?

for the most part, though we only used genki 1 through those 2 semesters, and there is still some parts of grammar i have not learned, i know the basics however i really dont want to get into the parts of grammar where there is much exceptions and what not.

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - sikieiki - 2010-08-21

grammar not much important. message feeling transmit well despite bad grammar. you sound like caveman. caveman good. caveman strong. impress japanese with caveman japanese.

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - zachandhobbes - 2010-08-21

sikieiki Wrote:grammar not much important. message feeling transmit well despite bad grammar. you sound like caveman. caveman good. caveman strong. impress japanese with caveman japanese.

The point is, the grammar books gave you some basis for things. You'll never be able to 'learn' the exceptions to grammar in a language. That's the whole point of SRSing sentences.

is it possible to learn without formally learning grammar? - rachels - 2010-08-21

Zon70 - Why don't you try starting with something non-threatening and friendly. eg. Japanese Sentence Patterns for Effective Communication. http://books.google.com/books?id=0BtGalt5ts4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=japanese+sentence+patterns+for+effective+communication&hl=en&ei=NF5wTLvUG4jfcf3HpKIN&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false Look though the start of the book here. You might also like it because it tries to give both polite and plain form versions of the sentences much of the time, and has an ani deck.

It also has a useful table of conjugated verbs at the back. A really clear and simple explanation of how the verb conjugations are formed is missing though - what would anyone suggest for a simple explanation?

But don't be put off by my mentioning verbs - worry about that later. Just looking at the sentence patterns should put you on the right track. It starts of basic but does cover quite a lot of material.