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+--- Thread: Am I Impatient? (/thread-6136.html)
Am I Impatient? - Hero of Time - 2010-08-04
I need a little help here. I'm about 500 kanji into RTK and about 42% into Core2000 the Smart.fm version (I just can't get into Anki, but I keep trying), and while I have decent memory for kanji, that isn't the case when reading the kanji. When I pop over to a Japanese newspaper to see what words I recognize, it's only a small handful of the kanji words. Is this because I don't recognize most of the kanji via Heisig and I'm just impatient with my desire to read? If so, how far along into Rtk should one go before Core2000, or is Core2000 not the next step?
Am I Impatient? - quincy - 2010-08-04
Ideally you should finish RTK first, but it's fine if you start learning words before you finish (it's gonna take longer for words with kanji you don't know to stick though). AFAIK core2000 doesn't explain any grammar, so you should do Tae Kim's guide first.
As for the newspaper, I wouldn't expect you to notice many words in one yet, but screw that, read something fun. Yotsubato is a pretty easy read, just don't stress too much over the dad and Jumbo's slangy conversations. Ignore what you can't read for now and just focus on what you can.
Am I Impatient? - Asriel - 2010-08-04
Hero of Time Wrote:500 kanji into RTK...42% into Core2000...can't read newspaperI would be very surprised if you could pick out a large number of words in a newspaper just from going through these.
I'm not sure about the general consensus, but I personally think you could to RTK and Core2k simultaneously.
And to be honest, recognizing a kanji from Heisig and knowing the word is a completely different thing. 説明 uses kanji #499 and #20 which are "rumor" and "bright." It's a very common word that means "explanation," but just recognizing the kanji from Heisig won't tell you that.
I think trying to read a newspaper is a bit higher than the level of 500 kanji and 42% of Core2000. Especially if that's all the training you have.
Am I Impatient? - quincy - 2010-08-04
If you haven't learned the kanji from RTK then you'll just be memorizing the word by shape. This will cause you to mix up similarly shaped kanji, and you won't notice the same kanji being used in two words that you've learned already. i.e. if you know 経済 and 試験 then come across 経験 you'll know how to read it right away because you remember 'sutra' is けい and the other one (still haven't finished heisig so I don't know) is けん.
This is from personal experience as I still haven't finished after two years but have learned a few thousand words. Maybe it's different for everyone, but It's a good idea to focus on finishing it (trying for the third time right now). Also I would finish RTK3 as well, those kanji come up more than you'd think.
Am I Impatient? - Aijin - 2010-08-04
Definitely impatient, but there's nothing wrong with that
easier to reach our goals when there's a burning coal under our butts than if we're just sipping tea while lazing on a hammock after all! At the same time, it's good to have a realistic understanding in order to keep yourself from getting frustrated or let down by your own progress. While dissapointment and disatisfaction may help some keep motivated to purge those feelings, for a lot of people it can not only cripple their learning, but eventually make them give up altogether. Newspapers are a very difficult reading source, requiring an incredible amount of reading practice to be able to process lengthy and complex sentences, as well as knowledge of advanced grammar, and a vocabulary of tens of thousands of words at a bare minimum. In the introduction to one of the Reading Real Japanese series, the translator notes that they remember feeling RELIEVED when they were told by (believe it was their professor?) that it only took 7 years for him/her to be able to read Japanese newspapers with fluency. And that coming from people whose lives and careers are devoted to the language.
That said, there is plenty of reading material that you will be able to enjoy on your journey through the language
stick to materials that are at your level, as completely understanding a story/text in Japanese will give you far more practice, experience, and joyful satisfaction than struggling with material that is way over your head. But keep in mind that the simplest native reading material, designed for elementary school children, will still require at least up to low-intermediate grammar, and a vocabulary of around 10,000 words, so don't be discouraged if you can't understand every word or phrase: you don't have to to understand the content and enjoy it. You'll build up comprehension over time as long as you stick to it, and before you know it you'll be reading the Asahi Shinbun like a pro ^_^
I'm in the midst of compiling a list of hundreds of beginner/intermediate sources that I've collected over the years for teaching, but until that's done my suggestion for manga would be びんちょうタン, which is the easiest manga for students that I've found so far. Much easier to understand the dialogue and grammar than Yotsubato and other child-orientated stories; nearly all of the vocabulary is what's used in most of the major textbooks, so it's very easy for most students to jump straight into. If you have no background with grammar etc. though, then even the simplest of material will be a challenge. So for now the greatest thing you can do to improve your reading comprehension will be to learn basic grammar, and start acquiring a few thousand essential words. After that you should be more than prepared to begin the literary journey
Best of luck!
Am I Impatient? - zwarte_kat - 2010-08-04
Yes I think you are impatient
Using this website, Smart.fm and studying books like RTK are great ways to learn Japanese. But I think, also from reading the forums, that many people get too obsessed with learning Japanese really fast. Yes for some people kanji marathons and other big challenges are stimulating and rewarding, but I think for many people they return into a burn out, feeling disappointed about themselves. Or they feel like they get lost in repeating the heaps of stuff they learned after a busy period of time (school, work). It happened to me.
In an ideal situation one could master Japanese quite fast with the above mentioned techniques, but I wouldn't put your expectations too high. Just keep doing your thing daily. A reasonable number of reviews and new items and try to read small enjoyable texts. Then comprehension will come. Maybe not after 2 months or x hours, but whenever you are ready for it. It is not about how much or how fast, it's about keeping it up.
Sure some people now might respond with "Well I did 100 a day and Kanji Odyssey in a month and I passed 1 kyuu within 18 months", but remember this is the internet. For every person with a success story there are hundreds of people who tried and failed.
But there are also hundreds of people who just studied leisurely each day and became good in a couple of years. And that's way more than good enough!
I have been living in Japan for a few of years, studying on and off. It is hard to define my skill because I didn't do any tests or classes. Let's just say I can get around. But I know that if I had studied everyday just a little bit, regardless of the methods used, I would have been really really good now.
Now I have some free time again to start learning, but I will keep my pace reasonable and enjoyable. Maybe this post is more something that I am telling myself, but I guess what I am trying to say to you is:
"Relax, it will come, just don't stop."
Am I Impatient? - Mushi - 2010-08-04
Aijin Wrote:Newspapers are a very difficult reading source, requiring an incredible amount of reading practice to be able toPersonally, I was born in Japan, can converse ok in Japanese, have read simple Japanese materials since I was a toddler. And I would bet anyone a million dollars that I will not be able to read a Japanese newspaper in this lifetime. My goals are much more modest. I just want to get through RTK1, RTK2, RTK3, KO2001, and other materials. If I can do that, I'll be happy.
Am I Impatient? - sikieiki - 2010-08-04
Aijin Wrote:Much easier to understand the dialogue and grammar than Yotsubato and other child-orientated stories; nearly all of the vocabulary is what's used in most of the major textbooks, so it's very easy for most students to jump straight into.But... Yotsubato is the best! I will hear nothing otherwise.
Am I Impatient? - ta12121 - 2010-08-04
Best thing you can do is keep going, that's the best advice. For me it's heading towards the 1 year mark for me learning jp without counting RTK1+3. And I can say I'm no where near fluent(my speaking/writing skills suck). I'm trying to say that, there will be difficulties ahead but if you keep going, your goal will eventually come. It honestly takes years to become fluent(all skills). But it's not that long/not impossible, just keep going.
Am I Impatient? - Iryoku - 2010-08-05
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Am I Impatient? - thistime - 2010-08-05
I don't think the OP is saying that he expects to be able to read a newspaper , just that when he opens a paper to see how many kanji he recognizes from the ones he's studied through RTK, he doesn't recognize as many as he thinks he should. Though I don't really get what he means here
Hero of Time Wrote:Is this because I don't recognize most of the kanji via Heisig and I'm just impatient with my desire to read?OP, what do you mean you don't recognize it "via Heisig"? You either recognize a kanji or you don't, unless I'm missing something? And what do you mean by "read" do you mean that you know the English meaning of the kanji through Heisig or that you are also learning the onyomi (etc.) along with RTK?
Am I Impatient? - thurd - 2010-08-05
Yes you are impatient
I remember that only around 1500 kanji I could look at Japanese text with confidence that I'll recognize most kanji. As for reading, I'm post Core6000 and still a lot of words are a mystery. Doing CoreXXXX won't make you fluent right away but its a huge improvement and is really worth it.
Am I Impatient? - ta12121 - 2010-08-05
Being impatient isn't a bad thing, you probably just want to get better faster. But for me i always tell myself that if I'm not at the level I want to be at, what do I have to do in order to get to that level. If you want to read a newspaper/understand kanji/read it all. Then just read/srs/break down a lot and in a few months your going to notice a huge increase in the amount of kanji you can read/understand.
Am I Impatient? - Hero of Time - 2010-08-05
Yeah, I'm impatient, but at least I have some clearer goals now. I actually have a pretty good grasp of grammar, as I had gone through the first Genki book I don't remember how long ago - before I decided that Japanese was something I seriously wanted to study. I just have a heck of a time being able to pick out words I know in any written material (not just newspapers, which I don't plan on being able to really read for a long time now). I seem to be much, much better at hearing Japanese and understanding it than I am at reading any form of Japanese. The point of Core2000 and up for me was to be able to read words better, not necessarily learn them since I know a lot of them already.
So, what do you guys think of this plan? I should definately put most of my energy towards RTK. I really want to finish Core2000, and when I'm done, maybe when I go through it a second time, it'll be easier to read the kanji words. As I said, grammar isn't too difficult for me, at least basic to intermediate grammar, but I still have difficulty reading.
Am I Impatient? - mentat_kgs - 2010-08-05
Yes you are impatient, but this is probably very good for you. Continue this impatient and you'll do great.
Am I Impatient? - socrat - 2010-08-06
The more impatient you are the better
I sometimes actually find newspapers easier to read than manga. (more standard writing with less slang, etc). For example this article today doesn't contain anything you wouldn't find at the jlpt2 lvl. After core 2000 plus a few extra vocab/kanji from core 6000 should be able to do it.
http://www.asahi.com/business/update/0806/TKY201008060325.html