Finished RTK1; next step...? And a demoralizing first attempt.

Finished RTK1; next step...? And a demoralizing first attempt. - Printable Version

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Finished RTK1; next step...? And a demoralizing first attempt. - simiyachaq - 2010-07-30

You should definitely go for Assimil. It's aimed at self-learners and it does a superb job introducing grammar gradually. It has kanji from lesson one (though it has romaji right below if you feel overwhelmed by the kana and kanji). On each left page there is the Japanese text with the corresponding English translation (or French, if you have the French edition) on the opposing page and grammar/cultural footnotes. I'm already done with volume 2 and doing the active phase. I just love it.
It includes 4 audio CDs with nothing but Japanese.

http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Ease-Assimil-Catherine-Garnier/dp/2700521005/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1280536894&sr=8-1

If you wanna take it further, I suggest that you go with these:

My two favorites:
http://www.amazon.com/Living-Japanese-Diversity-Lifestyles-Conversations/dp/030010958X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1280537052&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Making-Sense-Japanese-Textbooks-Kodanshas/dp/4770028024/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1280537088&sr=1-1

These are very helpful too:

http://www.amazon.com/Love-Hate-Everything-Between-Expressing/dp/4770028032/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1280537111&sr=1-4

http://www.amazon.com/How-Sound-Intelligent-Japanese-Vocabulary/dp/4770028598/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1280537111&sr=1-1

And forget about taking a class. In my experience they're boring and aimed at lazy people who need to be spoon-fed everything.

Good luck!

Finished RTK1; next step...? And a demoralizing first attempt. - robinowen - 2010-07-30

thecite Wrote:
Aijin Wrote:Diving straight into Japanese material would be the language-learning equivalent of dropping a five year old that can't swim into the English Channel without a life-vest. Smiles and, "Don't worry, you'll get the hang of it!" aren't too comforting....
I disagree, I used textbooks for quite a long time, and found them useless. It was only when I started immersing myself in native media that I gradually got better.
That being said, if you just sentence-mine the textbook for your SRS, you shouldn't have any problems.

So you did textbook -> immersion and the immersion really helped. That's way different to just going straight to immersion. The stuff you learnt in the textbook will have helped you when doing the immersion.

btw I'm not saying it's impossible to learn by immersion alone, I just think for the time it takes to do some texbook study it is more efficient than immersion alone.

Finished RTK1; next step...? And a demoralizing first attempt. - thecite - 2010-07-30

robinowen Wrote:
thecite Wrote:
Aijin Wrote:Diving straight into Japanese material would be the language-learning equivalent 之f dropping a 五ive 年ear 古ld that 可an't 泳wim into the English Channel without a 生ife-vest. Smiles and, "着on't worry, you'll get the 掛ang 之f it!" aren't too comforting....
吾 disagree, 吾 used textbooks for quite a 長ong time, and found them useless. It was 只nly when 吾 started immersing myself 中n native media that 吾徐radually got better.
That being said, if you just 文entence-mine the textbook for your SRS, you shouldn't have any problems.
So you did textbook -> immersion and the immersion really helped. That's way different to just 行oing straight to immersion. The stuff you learnt 中n the textbook will have helped you when doing the immersion.

btw 吾'm 勿ot saying it's impossible to 習earn by immersion alone, 吾 just 思hink for the 時ime it takes to 為o some texbook 学tudy it is more efficient than immersion alone.

Yeah, I was just trying to point out that textbooks alone are pretty useless. I did go through some textbooks, and Tae Kim, but it wasn't until I started reading native media that I got anywhere.

Sentence-mining some basic beginner sentences from textbooks or elsewhere would certainly help, although I would be listening to native media the whole time.

Finished RTK1; next step...? And a demoralizing first attempt. - mafried - 2010-08-01

Good way of phrasing it, thecite. I think the point I was trying to make was similar: it's common practice to do 100% textbook study first, then proceed to native media only once a basic level of comprehension has been reached. I've found it much more effective to jump into native media immediately, while simultaneously working through some learning materials as required. My experience (with other languages, admittedly) has been that it does not take long until I'm learning from native materials more effectively than I would from a textbook. I've never finished a textbook course in any language (except for schoolwork). Inevitably it always becomes a drag on my studies.

Finished RTK1; next step...? And a demoralizing first attempt. - ta12121 - 2010-08-01

mafried Wrote:Good way of phrasing it, thecite. I think the point I was trying to make was similar: it's common practice to do 100% textbook study first, then proceed to native media only once a basic level of comprehension has been reached. I've found it much more effective to jump into native media immediately, while simultaneously working through some learning materials as required. My experience (with other languages, admittedly) has been that it does not take long until I'm learning from native materials more effectively than I would from a textbook. I've never finished a textbook course in any language (except for schoolwork). Inevitably it always becomes a drag on my studies.

I agree, I did the same but i eventually found textbooks to be boring. But if one finds textbooks one enjoys then you can blaze through them with ease.

Finished RTK1; next step...? And a demoralizing first attempt. - Zephyros - 2010-08-08

Wow, what a discussion this turned into! Thanks so much everyone, this was some great advice!

The sheer amount of choices available to me will make it a lot easier to find something that works for me. What I've settled on for now is to begin at Tae Kim - I feel like I need some grammar, some way of breaking down the sentences, since my first exposure was just such a shock. Depending on how I find it, I'll start sentence-mining (possibly getting the AJATT sentence pack just to get a starting point), start Genki, or both.

As for exposure to native media - I'll definitely be introducing it slowly, but would you all suggest both oral and written or just oral? I've been listening to exclusively Japanese music for months now, but that's not really "native speaking", it's melodic and musical. I have some audiobooks in Japanese that might fit the bill, but beyond that, I'm wondering what else I could listen to - newscasts, anime, and movies all seem plausible, for example. The more my ear gets used to it, the more familiar it sounds and I feel like it's really helping. But should I also be picking up native written stuff as well? Like a short novel, manga, newspapers, online articles, etc - how helpful would they be? I suppose they would really help for "sentence-mining".

Thanks for the help, everyone, I can't stress enough how much you all helped out. But I think I'm going to stop dwelling on the intricacies of this and just jump right into it ASAP. Enough thinking, not enough doing. Hopefully, I'll find my legs quickly!

Finished RTK1; next step...? And a demoralizing first attempt. - mafried - 2010-08-08

I personally do primarily text, from the start. Manga is a good way to start in Japanese as the drawings give a heck of a lot of context. I'm sure you can find a manga series out there to your liking. And from there, just read, read, read.

(As an aside, I caution against doing any of this with the intention of "sentence-mining". That would be sentence collecting, and you won't really learn from that. Just read, watch, learn for the sake of getting better, and just happen to record anything that jumps out at you into your SRS.)

Finished RTK1; next step...? And a demoralizing first attempt. - zachandhobbes - 2010-08-09

Hi everyone. I am someone who has taken some years of Japanese classes at school but only know a limited amount (hiragana/katakana, some verbs and grammar that one may use in super basic conversation in Japan, etc) of Japanese, but am looking to start RtK soon and had the same question as OP - what to do after.

I have begun the "AJATT Trademark Immersion Process" or whatever, changing a lot of things to Japanese versions (music, websites, etc) and am finding slight improvements in distinguishing words and I notice a lot of the words that I already know, however I am not able to fathom how one would be able to learn just by reading things and immersing oneself in an environment just by having done RtK.

From what I understand all RtK does is lets you be able to write and distinguish kanjis from each other and gives a loose definition for what the kanji may mean when it's by itself.

How does this translate into one being able to read a manga book? It seems like you wouldn't even be able to pronounce anything you see, clumsily trying to attach your keywords to the kanji you have learned and reading hiragana despite not understanding it whatsoever. Grammar be damned, I've got that part already - if you don't know the words how are you expected to learn them?

I guess that's my question.

Finished RTK1; next step...? And a demoralizing first attempt. - vinniram - 2010-08-09

a good thing to do is sentence mine a textbook. they're really great for sentence mining. I'm only just at the start of japanese studies, but I've already mined 750 sentences from Japanese for everyone, and it's really nice to be able to add progressively more complex sentences, without having to go out searching for random sentences and spending so long trying to figure it out.

Finished RTK1; next step...? And a demoralizing first attempt. - Dragonsheep - 2010-08-10

zachandhobbes Wrote:How does this translate into one being able to read a manga book? It seems like you wouldn't even be able to pronounce anything you see, clumsily trying to attach your keywords to the kanji you have learned and reading hiragana despite not understanding it whatsoever. Grammar be damned, I've got that part already - if you don't know the words how are you expected to learn them?

I guess that's my question.

It doesn't, RTK by itself is absolutely useless. It's arguable if by itself you're learning Japanese, but it makes learning actual Japanese much much much much much easier.

By the way, I second Assimil, it really is somthing great. I'm going through the passive wave and it's excellent.

Although I have a question for Assimil users about the active wave. If the lessons are indeed the same, what new material is covered by the grammar notes and review lessons?

Finished RTK1; next step...? And a demoralizing first attempt. - mafried - 2010-08-10

Nothing. I use that 'off-day' to go through and review the last 6 lessons an additional time, like you do with the passive wave.