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Translated novels - vix86 - 2010-07-21
Recently while browsing through Book1st for something to read, I discovered translated novels. Some of these being books I've read back home (Altered Carbon, The Host, etc). I assume because its a translation that not everything may be 1:1.
But what do you people think about using translated novels + the original as a way to get advanced/difficult sentences that you can use for sentence decks and have some certainty that it is correct?
Translated novels - Erubey - 2010-07-21
I've done this, its certainly not a sentence by sentence method of comparison
However, it did make my learning experience much more enjoyable. I knew the entire context of the scenes/lines so if I had some trouble figuring out how the japanese structure worked I would basically interpret it through the "eyes" of the english version.
Its easy to get lost in literature when theres no real background(grabbing a random japanese novel) so it was pretty much the best stepping stone I found to get to that stage.
Anyways, I wouldn't put the japanese sentence and then the english translation/original as the answer section in a card. Its more a vocabulary builder with heavy context.
The grammar part doesnt work as well since there are so many changes and really its a stylistic choice of the author. My opinion? Do it, study it a bit but dont make it a permanent part of your deck or anything. Just have some fun with it
Translated novels - wccrawford - 2010-07-22
If you're talking about books that were originally Japanese ("All You Need Is Kill" comes to mind) then I say go for it.
If you're talking about books translated into Japanese, don't SRS them.
Read them. Enjoy them. Don't SRS them.
Translated novels - vix86 - 2010-07-22
Why is that?
Translated novels - nadiatims - 2010-07-22
I think some people say don't srs books translated into Japanese because the Japanese is less natural. Personally I don't really think this is an issue because published translations of well known works will be be grammatically correct and done by skilled translators, and written by and for native Japanese Speakers. Secondly SRSing sentences is a waste of time in my opinion. Just srs the vocabulary if you feel like it and concentrate on reading more. If translated works are more enjoyable for you go for it.
Translated novels - vix86 - 2010-07-22
nadiatims Wrote:Secondly SRSing sentences is a waste of time in my opinion. Just srs the vocabulary if you feel like it and concentrate on reading more. If translated works are more enjoyable for you go for it.The more and more I go, the more and more I question this sentiment. I have a SRS deck with close to 1,000 handpicked-created vocab words (and a few phrases). Words vary from obscure to common, but I still forget a lot (I have a 70% correct rate on Mature cards, which seems low). If I toss in sentences the ease of doing cards shoots through the roof for many of these cards cause I can either jog my memory as to where I got the word from or jog it based on the context. I'm also reaching a point where my Vocab is decent enough for me to handle conversations and reading, but I still can't glue the words together well enough and there are still sentences I see where I'm scratching my head because I don't know what a combo of words and conjugations mean.
Regardless, thanks for the input everyone. And ya, these are books translated from English to JP by large publishing houses.
Translated novels - Tobberoth - 2010-07-22
I say, if you want to read English books, read them in English. If you want to read Japanese books, read them in Japanese. Reading a translated book is "easier" because you know the context, but all that really means is that you're not really understanding what you're reading, you're just using a context you already know to fill in. This, IMO, will lead to bad learning, you should learn to READ a japanese book, not to look at pretty text and make up your own story as you go. If you're not good enough to read a real japanese novel, get a dictionary, or read something else.
There are some amazing Japanese authors and I find it odd that someone would learn japanese without any interest in japanese culture, reading a japanese book in japanese is way better than reading a translation of something you already read.
Translated novels - pm215 - 2010-07-22
nadiatims Wrote:I think some people say don't srs books translated into Japanese because the Japanese is less natural. Personally I don't really think this is an issue because published translations of well known works will be be grammatically correct and done by skilled translators, and written by and for native Japanese Speakers.Random thread about this from the tail end of last year, to save everybody rehashing their positions.
Personally I generally read original-Japanese material because I find being able to read something I wouldn't be able to read otherwise is more motivating for me.
Translated novels - thurd - 2010-07-22
vix86 Wrote:The more and more I go, the more and more I question this sentiment. I have a SRS deck with close to 1,000 handpicked-created vocab words (and a few phrases). Words vary from obscure to common, but I still forget a lot (I have a 70% correct rate on Mature cards, which seems low). If I toss in sentences the ease of doing cards shoots through the roof for many of these cards cause I can either jog my memory as to where I got the word from or jog it based on the context.I have a vocab deck with a few grammar sentences (JLPT3&4) thrown in. This is what came up just now (だらけ is the key here and I don't have it as a normal vocab card):
携帯を２年間使ってたら、傷だらけになった。
Can I read this sentence? Yes
Can I understand this sentence? Yes
Could I understand だらけ used in different context? Probably No
Could I use だらけ in a sentence myself? No
You see whats the problem here and with sentences in general? No wonder you find "ease of doing cards shoots through the roof" but your problem is that this doesn't amount to anything. You'll just be a master of reading these particular sentences. Cloze deletion might help with this but its a lot of work to do it right and it reaches the same point as using vocab card instead...
Sentences, Khatzumoto, AJATT and all that ideology was taken a little too literally. Maybe its because of his writing style things tend to get "lost" in his message but he was clearly preaching about lots and LOTS of real life reading in addition to magical 10000 sentences. This is what it takes to get good, lots and lots of real practice (duh).
Translated novels - Erubey - 2010-07-23
As far as what everyone is saying for translated novels, I still disagree.
I learned english with books as well growing up, many were translated novels from Spanish, Russian, etc. Its not as if you end up talking like the books, unless that was purely you're only input for learning.
Translators are pretty good at what they do, I think they need to be given some slack
Translated novels - BlackMarsh - 2010-07-24
When I choose a novel to read I often make sure there are both English and Japanese versions. I read the Japanese version, then flip over to the English version when something is unclear. Japanese books are often physically smaller than English ones because they're often divided into part 1 （上） and part 2 （下）. When I read I have the Japanese version inside the English version (similar to how students read comic books in class making it look like they're reading the text book) and turn the pages page for page. It's a great way to learn. It's also fun evaluating the translation and trying to come up with different ways a sentence could be translated.
Translated novels - mizunooto - 2010-07-24
I'm reading a few translations just now. I've read Kokoro and Wild Sheep Chase and I'm just now reading Kinkakuji (The Temple of the Golden Pavilion, it's called), all in English. I have the rule about only reading native materials, and the rule that translations make you lazy, but my Japanese isn't so good yet and I'm using these as "learning novels" - as I read them in Japanese I can remember what's happening and what people are saying etc so it gives me a bit of a framework.
The way I see it, my experience of these works will always be coloured by my first reading of them, in English, but maybe when I'm fluent this will fall away like the Heisig mnemonics do. Plus these writers have plenty of other books which I will read in the future without translation.
[For any who don't know, the books I mention were written by Natsume Souseki 夏目漱石, Haruki Murakami 春樹村上, and Yukio Mishima 三島由紀夫. I would think Murakami is the easiest of the three. ? The others are more literary/archaic but I like that]
Why are these writers so good yet so little-known out here? [edit: should have made clear that I mean "in the West"/"in general literary circles"/"for English speakers" etc. "out here" doesn't mean much on its own!]
Translated novels - captal - 2010-07-24
mizunooto Wrote:Why are these writers so good yet so little-known out here?If you know anything about Japanese literature, you'd know who Soseki and Murakami are.
Translated novels - mizunooto - 2010-07-24
Yes, that's what I'm saying. I think they are so good that people who don't know about Japanese literature should know about them. In my opinion they are "Literature", not merely "Japanese Literature".
Translated novels - PatrickW - 2011-03-09
Meanwhile, Murakami is very popular in Belgium. About all his books are translated in Dutch and most bookstores store the whole bunch.
I even noticed, aside the Dutch version, the original Japanese version of 1Q84 (all 3 books) yesterday in a regular bookshop.
Translated novels - Ryuujin27 - 2011-03-09
Tobberoth Wrote:I say, if you want to read English books, read them in English. If you want to read Japanese books, read them in Japanese. Reading a translated book is "easier" because you know the context, but all that really means is that you're not really understanding what you're reading, you're just using a context you already know to fill in. This, IMO, will lead to bad learning, you should learn to READ a japanese book, not to look at pretty text and make up your own story as you go. If you're not good enough to read a real japanese novel, get a dictionary, or read something else.Sorry, Tobberoth, I need to disagree here.
There are some amazing Japanese authors and I find it odd that someone would learn japanese without any interest in japanese culture, reading a japanese book in japanese is way better than reading a translation of something you already read.
I think reading translated books is best BECAUSE you know the context. Already knowing that something is going to happen, or someone will say something, and then reading it in Japanese is great - you may not know all the words, but you can effectively guess which word means what and you see how the sentence structure changes.
In complete opposition to your point on this promoting bad study habits, I think it promotes good study habits. One of the best ways to learn a language, as it has been done for so very, very long, is to sit there and figure it out. How do you think grammar guides and learning materials come about? People needed to figure out another language to begin with. Learning words through context will make them stick far better (better even than a SRS, I'd say, but using in conjunction with a SRS is magical).
Give it a try, you might change your mind.
In fairness, a warning - Sometimes translated books will read a little... off in Japanese. Not really weird, but then again not precisely fluid Japanese.
Translated novels - Jarvik7 - 2011-03-09
I don't thing reading translations is bad on a fundamental learning level. However, Japanese readers prefer translations to be unnatural to emphasize the foreignness of them, so for Japanese language they are not a good choice.
Also I think rereading something you did in another language is boring/a waste of time, and even if you never read it in the original language, I think reading a native novel is better for the bit of cultural insight you get from it (either culture expressed in the book, or if the book is popular enough to have become a part of the culture).
Personally I think reading early is overrated. I never read a single manga or novel for the first 3 years I studied Japanese and it never held me back or delayed my progress. Start reading when you're ready and don't rely on re-reading translations as a crutch. The time spent limping through a too-hard book is better spent elsewhere.
Translated novels - Javizy - 2011-03-09
Tobberoth Wrote:There are some amazing Japanese authors and I find it odd that someone would learn japanese without any interest in japanese culture, reading a japanese book in japanese is way better than reading a translation of something you already read.Doesn't it largely depend? I read a few bunko by Yoshimoto Banana and Murakami that were absolute trash and put me off reading novels of any kind for the best part of two years. I just finished reading the translation of John Grisham's The Firm, and it's the most fun I've had reading Japanese so far.
It's easy to assume that something must be unnatural because it's been translated, but it'd be interesting to see you pinpoint some example sentences. I also wonder what constitutes a bad flashcard sentence. One that might contain something you wouldn't want to later produce? Does the likes of All You Need Is Kill contain model Japanese to use with your friends or colleagues? I'd rather take the banter between Mitch and his wife.
Ideally, I'd have been reading Japanese authors, and luckily I found a couple of good ones now, but I don't think there's anything terrible about a well done translation.
vix86 Wrote:The more and more I go, the more and more I question this sentiment. I have a SRS deck with close to 1,000 handpicked-created vocab words (and a few phrases). Words vary from obscure to common, but I still forget a lot (I have a 70% correct rate on Mature cards, which seems low). If I toss in sentences the ease of doing cards shoots through the roof for many of these cards cause I can either jog my memory as to where I got the word from or jog it based on the context.Have you tried adding an example sentence on the back of your vocabulary cards? I struggle to remember words without knowing how they're used as well, but it doesn't mean I have to suffer the disadvantages of sentence cards to get a decent retention rate. I think 'jog' is an understatement really; it's like having half your story on the front of your Heisig cards.
Translated novels - vix86 - 2011-03-09
Javizy Wrote:Have you tried adding an example sentence on the back of your vocabulary cards? I struggle to remember words without knowing how they're used as well, but it doesn't mean I have to suffer the disadvantages of sentence cards to get a decent retention rate. I think 'jog' is an understatement really; it's like having half your story on the front of your Heisig cards.Theres a bit of thread necromancy thats gone on here (check original date on my post).
I've slacked quite recently with my studying mostly cause of my new job and will probably be throwing that old deck out or reworking it. My feeling on sentence vs vocab hasn't changed much, but I'm likely going to go for sentence decks now so I can work on grammar. When I said "jog" though, back then, using the sentences was more context for remembering the word. It wasn't that I was using context clues to guess the meaning, it was more of "Oh ya, I remember this word because of this sentence." I was remembering the meaning because I recognized/memorized the sentence not because I was analyzing the sentence. I'm hoping when I have time and energy to sit down and build a sentence deck, that eventually I'll reach a critical mass of sentences and intervals where remembering the sentence isn't whats allowing me to easily say "oh ya I know what that means."
Translated novels - Nagareboshi - 2011-03-10
I have written about reading Japanese books, which involves the use of the native language copy. If anyone wants to read it here is the link. *click me*
