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I am able to find most primitives in the native Unicode fonts but.. - Printable Version

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I am able to find most primitives in the native Unicode fonts but.. - kapalama - 2010-06-03

I am able to find most primitives in the native Unicode fonts, but there is one "Growing Up" that is used a lot, that does not seem to be available in the Unicode set.


(I know someone made a font. But I would like to work with the standard unicode set.)

Is Growing up based on another character that gets simplified when written with another character. I guess specifically is it 丰 (which I think Heisig calls Bushes) just simplified for writing with another character, like 羊 or 聿?

I am able to find most primitives in the native Unicode fonts but.. - Zarxrax - 2010-06-03

The primitives that heisig chose are not all official radicals. He just made some of them up, because he saw them repeated across multiple kanji.

I am able to find most primitives in the native Unicode fonts but.. - kapalama - 2010-06-03

I have found every else, though, so far. Particular combinations may not be extant characters, but all the bits seem to be in the Unicode font sets.

And most of the complex ones are too. Thanksgiving, Mist, Bonsai, etc.

Which is why I am wondering about growing up. I assume it is just a simplified form of 丰. (I'll assume cornstalk is the same character simplified, but that is only used in one character directly, so it is unimportant for me to have in text, anyway).

Growing up is used in a bunch of characters, that do not seem to have been simplified to end up in their current form.

I am able to find most primitives in the native Unicode fonts but.. - bflatnine - 2010-06-03

But they have all been simplified. From seal script. Most of the time that this component shows up, it is a simplification of 生 in the original (seal) character. Other times, it is a simplification of other components, like 毛, 丰, 朿, or even more complicated ones like ?. Have a look through shuowenjiezi.com (free registration required, but worth it) some time to see all the different variants we could have ended up with as the standard. They can get pretty weird looking, but often, the weird variants are closer to being true to the original seal script characters than the modern versions are.

Edit: you'll need to install a font that can handle Unicode CJK Extensions A and B. HANNOM A and HANNOM B are good, and free.

I am able to find most primitives in the native Unicode fonts but.. - pm215 - 2010-06-03

You seem to be working on an assumption (that "provide all the subcomponents of kanji" was an aim in putting together Unicode and/or the character sets that contributed to it) which I'm not sure is justified.

Anyway, I looked some of these characters up in Henshall's _A Guide to Remembering Japanese Characters_ to see what it says on origins of this primitive.

Under 毒 it says that the 'growing up' primitive "is generally seen as a simplification of 生". This is also the case for 青. In 素 the top part was originally the prototype-form of 垂. In 麦 it's a simplification of a pictograph of a wheat plant. In 責 it was originally a variant of the subcomponent common to 策 and 刺. In 潔 and 契 it was the 'bushes' primitive. 表 is complicated but involves 毛. 害 was originally something like a combination of 用 and 古.

So in conclusion, it's one of those small and simple combinations of strokes that a number of different simplifications and abstractions happened to end up with.

I am able to find most primitives in the native Unicode fonts but.. - kapalama - 2010-06-03

So is the 'growing up’ glyph, as it is written, in any Japanese or other Unicode font that anyone has seen?

I am able to find most primitives in the native Unicode fonts but.. - bflatnine - 2010-06-03

kapalama Wrote:So is the 'growing up’ glyph, as it is written, in any Japanese or other Unicode font that anyone has seen?
It doesn't seem to exist as a character written that way, and it isn't a radical, so I really doubt it. Even some characters haven't been put into Unicode yet (very obscure ones, of course). I think the closest you'll get is 丯. That's what you'll find as one of the 部首 in the 說文解字, and is the full character version of the component you're talking about. You won't find it as a glyph written the way it appears as part of other characters because that's not how it looks when it stands alone.

I am able to find most primitives in the native Unicode fonts but.. - mafried - 2010-06-03

pm215 Wrote:You seem to be working on an assumption (that "provide all the subcomponents of kanji" was an aim in putting together Unicode and/or the character sets that contributed to it) which I'm not sure is justified.
I can vouch that it definitively was not a goal. Some non-radical primitives are encoded, but often that is because they once had an archaic meaning, or another encoding standard decided to defined a point for them and that got wrapped into Unicode when they merged. It has never been a goal of the Unicode consortium to encode non-character primitives, however.

I am able to find most primitives in the native Unicode fonts but.. - kapalama - 2010-06-04

bflatnine Wrote:丯..
丯, 丰 well they are close-ish, I guess...

Is there some thread here where people keep track of which primitives are represented in the standard unicode fonts, and which are not?

I have spent a fair amount of time wandering through glyph lists to find the ones I have, and it seems like it would be worth saving someone else the time.

I'll paste my sheet here for fun:
厂广疒勹匚匸冂尸耂
亠宀冖癶 艹覀罒㓁亼䒑艹艹
丿廴辶弋戈戊戌乑争爭豕
爫䖝离　咼咸彡丶翟 亲
弓冫氵亻礻彳忄扌牜丬衤戠
刂丨几乚禾飠犭羽豸歹酉糸
卉耒儿灬殳阝氺攵夂夂关圣卩囗
隹隶 韭夌夋耒尹 尃舛丰枼莫旡 疋弃粦
叕尞夆亦关八卆ホ韋巠巤巢巣
亢孰聿攵巾丗 并斤隶弓亨尔尔
竟昜廾开孚韭咢牙虫幺酉壴襄
*
Not Rikaichan recognized But RevTK Safe:
訁釒⺗产丷丷⺍⺤⺌宂㠯㦮录㦰⼮兑兴⺶⻏
Not Recognized, stops RevTK:
????(ver of 疋)?(ver of 疋)????? ????
???????? ??

Versions Recognized but not these:
⺫⼇⺖⺭⾗

I am able to find most primitives in the native Unicode fonts but.. - kapalama - 2010-06-04

bflatnine Wrote:or even more complicated ones like ?. .
Whatever that character is, it is outside what a standard Mac install can see. I googled it, and apparently the search does actually look for that character, but of course I cannot see it on any of the sites it appears on either.

I tried pasting it into a couple of chinese stroke order web sites but they don't recognize it either apparently.

What is that character?

I am able to find most primitives in the native Unicode fonts but.. - bflatnine - 2010-06-04

kapalama Wrote:
bflatnine Wrote:or even more complicated ones like ?. .
Whatever that character is, it is outside what a standard Mac install can see. I googled it, and apparently the search does actually look for that character, but of course I cannot see it on any of the sites it appears on either.

I tried pasting it into a couple of chinese stroke order web sites but they don't recognize it either apparently.

What is that character?
Again,

Quote:you'll need to install a font that can handle Unicode CJK Extensions A and B. HANNOM A and HANNOM B are good, and free.
You'll suddenly go from about 20,000 to over 70,000 characters that your Mac will be able to render.

I am able to find most primitives in the native Unicode fonts but.. - kapalama - 2010-06-09

bflatnine Wrote:You'll suddenly go from about 20,000 to over 70,000 characters that your Mac will be able to render.
(But the whole point is to not install fonts. Lack of portability.)

I am able to find most primitives in the native Unicode fonts but.. - JimmySeal - 2010-06-09

My OS (Windows 7 Japanese Edition) has no extra fonts installed and can render all of the characters in this thread.

Quote:叕尞夆亦关八卆ホ韋巠巤巢巣
This ホ is actually katakana and looks completely incongruous with the surrounding characters, but I guess it's close enough for whatever you're doing.

I am able to find most primitives in the native Unicode fonts but.. - bflatnine - 2010-06-09

kapalama Wrote:
bflatnine Wrote:You'll suddenly go from about 20,000 to over 70,000 characters that your Mac will be able to render.
(But the whole point is to not install fonts. Lack of portability.)
OK. Good luck then. Rolleyes

I am able to find most primitives in the native Unicode fonts but.. - usis35 - 2010-06-09

http://rapidshare.com/files/397159867/Heisig_Primitives_rtk_forum.xls.html

I am able to find most primitives in the native Unicode fonts but.. - kapalama - 2010-06-15

JimmySeal Wrote:My OS (Windows 7 Japanese Edition) has no extra fonts installed and can render all of the characters in this thread.

Quote:叕尞夆亦关八卆ホ韋巠巤巢巣
This ホ is actually katakana and looks completely incongruous with the surrounding characters, but I guess it's close enough for whatever you're doing.
You are correct. I just have a slop sheet for commonly used bits. I wonder if I use that for something or it just got their by mistake?

How switchable is the OS in Windows 7? Can you make the computer work with English menus or is it Japanese only?

I am able to find most primitives in the native Unicode fonts but.. - ninetimes - 2010-06-15

If you have Win7 ultimate, it's native and you can just download language packs and it changes the entire OS from menus to help files to error messages.

Sans ultimate, you can use Vistalizator.

I am able to find most primitives in the native Unicode fonts but.. - kapalama - 2010-07-04

Wow Windows 7 ultimate is worth it for that alone then (maybe)

Thanks for those links. I am on Mac now, but I am sure at some point I will be using Windows again.