Is RTK2 useful? Did you use RTK2?

Is RTK2 useful? Did you use RTK2? - Printable Version

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Is RTK2 useful? Did you use RTK2? - ta12121 - 2010-05-30

Tobberoth Wrote:I'm not criticizing you, I'm pointing out that JLPT is far from just numbers and an arbitrary collection of kanji, and it's not too smart to belittle it. There are several reasons to learn every kanji in the list, most of them good. That the government picked them and that every japanese schoolchild has to learn every single one are just two reasons.

That some of the kanji in the list are used rarely and that some common kanji (not that 珈琲 could be called daily use by any stretch of the imagination) are not in it doesn't really take anything away from it, especially not since it was made in 1981. I would recommend everyone who is serious about Japanese to sit down and learn the new kanji because they are added for a good reason. The list isn't made by some drunk politicians, there's a lot of deliberation behind it.

I am taking that to heart, I've recently made a JLPT/grammar deck specifically for JLPT level 4 to 1. Just to break down/study vocab/sentence necessary. Then once that's done, I'll merge it with my sentence deck. I actually have started a production deck(purely for writing reasons,nothing else. Well some monolingual stuff but that's it.). I'm adding the common stuff, so I aim to take use of frequency of kanji usage. As I would like to be able to write from memory useful things/common.) I think this applies in english as well, like you can't know every word/how to use it in context. But you can still easily be good in the language. So after I go for all the common stuff, I'll add stuff that you don't really see often, maybe from some sci-fi stuff,etc,etc.

Is RTK2 useful? Did you use RTK2? - nest0r - 2010-05-30

How many of the new 常用 kanji aren't in RTK again? If it's a good number I might sit down with them, since I've yet to come across any occasional new kanji I can't learn in a few seconds (solidified by a couple successful reps subsequently). I can't get kanji stats to work in Anki and no idea if the plugins for Anki check new jouyou anyway...

Is RTK2 useful? Did you use RTK2? - Asriel - 2010-05-30

I agree that it's a decent guideline, and it does have far-reaching effects. It's way better to learn the jouyou kanji as opposed to just learning them ad hoc.

But my point is that I'm not going to sit down and go one by one learning them simply because they're jouyou kanji.
On the other hand, I'm not going to not learn 珈琲, 癌、and other (relatively) commonly used kanji simply because they're not jouyou.

珈琲 suits my daily needs way better than 朕.
Maybe it's just that there's more 宮越珈琲 shops around here than normal.

Is RTK2 useful? Did you use RTK2? - Tobberoth - 2010-05-31

nest0r Wrote:How many of the new 常用 kanji aren't in RTK again? If it's a good number I might sit down with them, since I've yet to come across any occasional new kanji I can't learn in a few seconds (solidified by a couple successful reps subsequently). I can't get kanji stats to work in Anki and no idea if the plugins for Anki check new jouyou anyway...

I'm not sure on an exact number (where's Katsuo when you need him) but from a quick look, it looks like the majority of the new 196 kanji aren't in RtK1 (I suspect pretty much all of them to be in RtK3 though) but most of them I know, so it seems like most of them are indeed added because they are at least quite common. Words like 挨拶, 曖昧 and 語彙 can be encountered quite often.

Is RTK2 useful? Did you use RTK2? - nest0r - 2010-05-31

Katsuo to the rescue: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?pid=42152#pid42152 - What a terrible memory I have, I even thanked them for that list which technically I never looked at.

Is RTK2 useful? Did you use RTK2? - Katsuo - 2010-05-31

Summary: There will be 196 New Joyo Kanji. Breakdown of where to find them:
RTK1: 39
RTK3: 134
Not in RTK: 23

(For more details click my "Website" link and check out the Joyo-related spreadsheets.)

Coscom have a page giving an overview of why the various new characters are being included (it's in Japanese only).

Is RTK2 useful? Did you use RTK2? - Thora - 2010-05-31

More great info from Katsuo. Thanks for that Coscom link. The note on 鬱 was kind of amusing:

Quote:「憂鬱」の鬱も今回常用入りしました。この字を覚える学習者はまさに憂鬱でしょう

Some of the words do seem to reflect the times we live in: kidnapping, handgun, disappearance, depression, jealous, confinement, fingernail scratches, etc. (Maybe the next revisions will revive kanji for short selling, bailouts, CDOs....)

PC Kanji?
You linked us earlier to deliberations on the new joyo list. I found interesting the discussion about including 碍 so that 障害　could instead be written as 障碍. The idea was to avoid the negative sense of 害 to show greater sensitivity to disabled people. Apparently, 障がいis sometimes used in medicine and 障碍　is used in psychology for that reason. It's an interesting example of how etymology and meaning of individual kanji within words can be significant. It appears, though, that 碍 didn't make the cut.

Is RTK2 useful? Did you use RTK2? - kapalama - 2010-06-15

Heisig has the new kanji out in a PDF addendum FWIW.

Is RTK2 useful? Did you use RTK2? - vileru - 2010-06-15

kapalama Wrote:Heisig has the new kanji out in a PDF addendum FWIW.

Link please!

Is RTK2 useful? Did you use RTK2? - Katsuo - 2010-06-15

vileru Wrote:Link please!

link

Is RTK2 useful? Did you use RTK2? - Groot - 2010-06-15

Thanks for posting that link, Katsuo. I guess I have a bit more RTKing to do, at some point.

Interestingly, Heisig says he's preparing a new edition of RTK 1, incorporating some or all of the new characters -- and renumbering them. I wonder how that will affect the various dictionaries and references that cross-reference to Heisig keyword numbers. Also, I wonder if he plans to renumber RTK 2 and 3 too.

Is RTK2 useful? Did you use RTK2? - kapalama - 2010-06-16

Thanks for posting that link Katsuo. I downloaded it, and then forgot to book mark the link, so I could not find it.

Is RTK2 useful? Did you use RTK2? - kapalama - 2010-06-22

Groot Wrote:Interestingly, Heisig says he's preparing a new edition of RTK 1, incorporating some or all of the new characters -- and renumbering them. I wonder how that will affect the various dictionaries and references that cross-reference to Heisig keyword numbers. Also, I wonder if he plans to renumber RTK 2 and 3 too.

If he does renumber RTK 1 he will have to renumber the rest because of the drop outs from RTK 3 and the editions. Here's hoping he just adds them to the end of the 3006 already numbered.