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+--- Thread: Having issues trying to learn grammar. (/thread-5633.html)
Having issues trying to learn grammar. - Mushi - 2010-09-04
Michael1919 Wrote:Based on how everyone responded to the post I made...I'm still at square one in terms of grammar. It seems I still haven't really figured out how to go about reading sentences. Still, at least I got corrected before it was too late and I figured out that the method I've been using wouldn't work by that point. Just wonder though, how can one exactly go about reading without using that method? Do those of you who are more advanced just read/know the words of a sentence then just automatically figure out what it means based on the words of the sentence?Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were advocating that we adopt this technique you illustrated. If it's something you use occasionally to help you parse sentences, I don't see anything wrong with that. We all work a little differently, and try out different things. I also didn't realize your level - I was like, "I've never heard of SOV before! It must be really advanced!"
Anyway, as long as you're wondering what you can do differently, let's take a look at this technique, because I think it can still help you advance, if you continue to evolve it as you advance.
Michael1919 Wrote:Japanese:ほんはどこですかFor a learner, I understand it may be necessary to parse out a sentence in great detail in order to understand it. But I think the third and fourth steps here are problematic as shown. I would "evolve" your method like this:
Romaji:Hon wa doko desu ka.
English Literal Translation:Book where is?
Proper English Translation:Where is the book?
Japanese: ほんはどこですか
Romaji: Hon wa doko desu ka.
Mixed English Translation: Book は where is か?
English Translation: Where is the book?
Then, as you progress, you can eventually drop the English translation, then start phasing out romaji, then phase out English translations of Japanse words that you've memorized. That's just one possible roadmap, but the point is, you can progress at a pace that is appropriate for you from here to there, whatever the path.
Having issues trying to learn grammar. - pm215 - 2010-09-04
Michael1919 Wrote:Just wonder though, how can one exactly go about reading without using that method? Do those of you who are more advanced just read/know the words of a sentence then just automatically figure out what it means based on the words of the sentence?Well, the eventual end point is that you just read the sentence and know what it means. If you read in English "The cat sat on the mat." you don't individually stop to think about the meanings of 'cat', 'sit' and 'mat' or about verb tenses and structures; you just understand it (and as Fillanzea points out, you don't think "cat, sit, mat -- that must mean the cat's on top of the mat not below it", you know the meaning conveyed by the grammar too). But getting there is tricky, and while you're getting there there will be stages where you either don't understand things or have to consciously think about them.
Quote:Otherwise...The only way I can really guess anyone else understands the Grammar is by exactly memorizing phrases/sentences.I think it's useful to think about grammar in terms of patterns -- you end up remembering the patterns, not specific sentences. To understand a sentence completely you need to know both the patterns it uses and the individual words. (I think this is why you got strong reactions to your original post -- it comes across as "the patterns aren't conveying any information, just look at words"...)
I second the recommendation for the Rubin book, incidentally.
Having issues trying to learn grammar. - Tori-kun - 2010-09-04
Fillanzea Wrote:1) Where are the particles? What do you know based on the particles about what the subject, topic, object, and/or location of the sentence are?That's pretty like translating antique latin texts from different authors into another language, f.e. German or English. Naturally the authors use rhetorical figures and stylistic devices, making sentences difficult to throughlook, but following the rules you listed (where is the subject i need/objects, concerned?/relative (subordinated) clauses/auxiliaries, where is the main verb etc.) turns a beginner with minimal grammar knowledge and RtK1 knowledge into someone who's pretty able to understand at least the context/getting the gist of sentences (not too advanced or specialised naturally).
2) Where is the main verb?
3) Are there any relative clauses, and what do they describe?
#1, you can find just by locating the particles. #2, almost always, is right at the end. #3, any verb that comes directly in front of a noun is a good signpost for a relative clause, though there are other kinds of clauses too. Any verb that comes before the very end of the sentence most likely only applies to the noun or noun phrase that comes right after it, not the whole sentence.
Thank you for the method, i hope it helps me translating 雪国抄!
Cheers, T.
Having issues trying to learn grammar. - zigmonty - 2010-09-04
Michael1919 Wrote:Just wonder though, how can one exactly go about reading without using that method?I'm a software guy, so my advice is maybe not so helpful. Thinking about how to encode ideas in other languages is more or less what we do. I don't really compare japanese grammar to english that much, they're so different. As weird as it sounds, japanese feels more like a programming language to me. Anyway, i might have a rather weird approach, so take this with a grain of salt.
I think your method was fine up until the "guess" part. You broke down every part of the sentence and understood its function (including the particle). Where you're going wrong is the translation into english imho. Especially the SOV stuff, thinking of japanese from a word order point of view isn't so helpful. The particles are telling you what's what. Translating all the words to english, but leaving the japanese word order isn't really a translation at all. Trying to understand the original sentence by trying to parse a horribly broken english sentence with incorrect word order is going to end in tears. Try to understand what japanese means in japanese, then if you want to, think about what the equivalent english is. Literal translations are another way of saying "I'm going to deliberately not translate this properly". Sometimes they can be helpful, but they're a crutch best avoided if you can imho.
"ほんはどこですか" Topic is ほん, rest of the sentence is どこ. The "です" in this sentence doesn't really mean anything, other than adding politeness. And of course か is the question marking particle. A literal translation of this sentence would be something like "Regarding book, where?", although は is a pretty awkward particle to translate literally. It doesn't have a direct equivalent in english.
As pm215 said though, eventually you stop having to think about this. I think you'll be surprised how quickly that will happen to you too once you start skipping the english step.
Having issues trying to learn grammar. - rich_f - 2010-09-05
Yeah, wrapping your brain around the concept of topic particles *not* being subjects is the first step down the road.
My main beef with the ADBJG series was the lack of coverage of just, well, random important stuff. (It's 50-50 on Intermediate-Advanced stuff.) What it does cover, it does a good job of, but you never know what you're missing out on, and it's infuriating to get left hanging, especially at that price.
I also can't stand their indexing, because it makes it ungainly and awkward to look up things, and they wind up putting things in just weird places because of the cursed romaaji.
I wish they'd revise the ADBJG series with more of an eye to what other books cover (as in, every other book out there), and add more material too it, but since they haven't, I just use my pile o' books to compensate.
Having issues trying to learn grammar. - usis35 - 2010-09-05
@rich_f
I'm finding a great gap between "An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese" and KM2. What do you recommend for that gap?
Having issues trying to learn grammar. - lanval - 2010-09-06
for learning grammar, it really helps me to use it, but some points like resemblence (mitai, you, sou) I never think of using... I guess cause I describe more things I do than what I see.
Does anyone know some good essay topics? I need to write more.
Having issues trying to learn grammar. - jcdietz03 - 2010-09-06
I was having trouble with this:
遠慮しときます･･･
I _think_ it is a set phrase. I know that only after having looked it up on http://www.alc.co.jp/ - because I don't recognize any patterns in that phrase. I have no idea how you're supposed to know that and it does not come up in EDICT.
I was having trouble with this:
でも、淡々と術式を唱える講義よ
I didn't know what the 淡々と meant. So I looked it up on http://www.alc.co.jp/ . Now I know. It does not come up in EDICT.
I don't think studying basic grammar rules would have helped.
Having issues trying to learn grammar. - rich_f - 2010-09-06
@usis35
EDIT: Sorry, I misread your question. I skipped an Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese (we used some weird Intermediate books from Bonjinsha.)
I'd recommend trying the new N3 grammar book by UNICOM as a review. (ISBN 978-4-89689-469-1) One of the people in my review class is trying for N3, and he loves it. I had a look, and it does a good job of reviewing plus going over new material. Or try the old KM level 3 book to see if you know everything in that, if the N3 book is too hard. You might still be able to find it. (ISBN 978-4-88319-354-7)
Or, if you like textbooks, we used part of this one: I think it's the one that comes after an Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese. It's called "Authentic Japanese: Progressing from Intermediate to Advanced," by the Japan Times. We mostly just used the workbook to learn grammar bits in class. Textbook: (ISBN: 978-4-7890-0918-1) Don't have the workbook handy, but I'm sure it's on the Japan Times website.
Having issues trying to learn grammar. - Thora - 2010-09-06
jcdietz03 Wrote:I was having trouble with this: [...] I don't think studying basic grammar rules would have helped.Well, the verb is 遠慮する. しときます is a shortened form of しておきます.
遠慮しときます･･･
So knowing the ~ておく grammar form lets us recognize the form and understand the meaning. (The ALC translation isn't great.)
If you Google "遠慮してお", there's are heaps of example sentences using the various conjugations of おく。
Quote:でも、淡々と術式を唱える講義よ淡々 is in Edict, btw. If anything, grammar signals that it's an adverb describing the way the verb is done, so we can better decide if it's worth looking up the exact meaning. (If we're doing extensive reading, for eg).
Grammar can be your friend. :-)
Having issues trying to learn grammar. - usis35 - 2010-09-06
rich_f Wrote:@usis35Thank you, I will follow your advise. I think the order to go is KM3, then Unicom N3, then Authentic Japanese , then KM2
I'd recommend trying the new N3 grammar book by UNICOM as a review. (ISBN 978-4-89689-469-1) One of the people in my review class is trying for N3, and he loves it. I had a look, and it does a good job of reviewing plus going over new material. Or try the old KM level 3 book to see if you know everything in that, if the N3 book is too hard. You might still be able to find it. (ISBN 978-4-88319-354-7)
Or, if you like textbooks, we used part of this one: I think it's the one that comes after an Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese. It's called "Authentic Japanese: Progressing from Intermediate to Advanced," by the Japan Times. We mostly just used the workbook to learn grammar bits in class. Textbook: (ISBN: 978-4-7890-0918-1) Don't have the workbook handy, but I'm sure it's on the Japan Times website.
Having issues trying to learn grammar. - lanval - 2010-09-07
It seems like all N3 books are already sold, at least in Germany, and the Japan Shop doesnt have it anymore either.
I won't spend over 30 euro for a used book...
Having issues trying to learn grammar. - rich_f - 2010-09-07
To get N2 and N3 books in the US, I had to order from BK1 and Amazon.co.jp. If you're going to order from Amazon.co.jp, though, at least make it worth your while, and buy a number of books/CDs/DVDs from them to offset the outrageous shipping/handling they charge.
Having issues trying to learn grammar. - chochajin - 2010-09-07
Don't scare me. I just had a N2 book in my hands today, but decided to not buy it (yet)
Having issues trying to learn grammar. - usis35 - 2010-09-07
N3 in kinokuniya usa
https://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp/guest/cgi-bin/wshoseaohb.cgi?KEYWORD=9784896894691&AREA=02
Having issues trying to learn grammar. - rich_f - 2010-09-07
Yeah, that's the good N3 book that my friend likes.
The N2 books I wanted were mostly out of stock at Kino in the US. I wound up having to order from BK1. There was one book I wound up having to order from Amazon, because BK1 was out of stock.
Having issues trying to learn grammar. - jcdietz03 - 2010-09-08
Quote:しときます is a shortened form of しておきます.Well 知らなかったです。 (I didn't know that.) If I still didn't know that, how would I go about looking it up? I'm familiar with ~ておく, but the pattern matching algorithm in my brain didn't catch the shortened version.
So knowing the ~ておく grammar form lets us recognize the form and understand the meaning. (The ALC translation isn't great.)
Quote:これも知らなかったです。(I didn't know this too) Where can I read about "adv-to"s (that's what EDICT calls them)?Quote:でも、淡々と術式を唱える講義よ淡々 is in Edict, btw. If anything, grammar signals that it's an adverb describing the way the verb is done, so we can better decide if it's worth looking up the exact meaning. (If we're doing extensive reading, for eg).
Quote:Grammar can be your friend. :-):-)
Having issues trying to learn grammar. - zigmonty - 2010-09-21
brad12 Wrote:hi..........I am new here...........I know it will stupid question.but I think the Japanese grammar is difficuilt to learn........have you any suggestion...how to learn the japanese language easily..this is the main part I think.....I'll ignore the near 50% "." to rest of sentence ratio and simply say this: you cannot learn the japanese language easily. You can't learn any language easily. Hell, your native language would have taken a long time too. Step 1 is realising it will be a long journey no matter what method you follow.
There are a variety of methods that are advocated by a variety of people. Many have been discussed here previously (some in this thread). Maybe if you go search and see what's already been said and come back with more specific questions, you'll get a better response.