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Core 6000 step recommendation - juniperpansy - 2010-05-13

I've started doing core 6000 step1 slowly, but I don't find it that good for me. Most of the new words are business related (something I don't care about very much) and have 2-3 new words per sentence. I'm finding it dense and depressing...

I have looked at a few of the other steps and they seem to have less business words (yay!) than step1... but it's really hard to compare lists that big...

My question is, which steps of core6000 do you recommend for somebody who is primarily interested in learning everyday/normal conversation material?


Thanks,
Juniper

Core 6000 step recommendation - incepator - 2010-05-13

A good place to start is this:

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=5110

Core 6000 step recommendation - Nukemarine - 2010-05-13

Here's a sorted list. If you like it, there's an Anki deck or two that has it already set up to review.

Core 6000 Sorted

Core 6000 step recommendation - cangy - 2010-05-13

kore (http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?pid=91821#pid91821) now has jlpt level info, so you could start with the lower levels and work your way up. also, being sorted by kanji limits the introduction of new words per sentence

Core 6000 step recommendation - brandon7s - 2010-05-13

I'm going through the Core6000 too. My strategy is that whenever I come across a word that does not seem common (haven't heard it, or don't think it has a definition which would be used in every day life), I suspend it. Like you said, a lot of business related words are in the deck. I WILL learn them, eventually, but I'm going to start out learning the things that are important, common, and easier to remember.

I'm working only on audio/speech though.

Core 6000 step recommendation - juniperpansy - 2010-05-15

Thanks guys. hmmm... I guess I will just suspend step1 and then start on step2. If that is no better, I will suspend step2 then get started on step3 lol.

Core 6000 step recommendation - Nukemarine - 2010-05-15

Juniper, if you have a ready list that you think qualifies as "everyday Japanese" it's not to difficult to suspend all the cards, search for cards that have words from your list, then unsuspend those cards to study.

For the most part, most of the words in Core 6k can be useful for your everyday needs. It's not really worth the effort to weed out words that won't be useful. Using the sorted list, at least there's some order to the confusion though. When I tried to do Core 6k unsorted, I gave up after 80 words. Later, when I added words I came across doing subs2srs and even earlier Core 2k cards (sentences that had words with their own vocabulary entry) that I actually did many more cards. The Cangy sorted deck looks just as user friendly in approach.

Don't expect individual Core 6k steps to be any more user friendly than step 1. Later steps just throw the words at you in kana order.

Core 6000 step recommendation - TaylorSan - 2010-05-15

If I could go back in time and change ONE thing, it would be not learning vocab in sentences. Instead, use the sorted list and make decks for sentences and vocab separate. Learn the words in the vocab deck. Then follow it up with practice reading, seeing them in context, and grammar structures with the sentence deck. I use the Core6k sorted vocab deck for words I come across too - just search and unsuspend, or, make the card if it's not there. That's what I'm doing now, but I'm having to weed through my sentences from the months prior to put poorly trained words activated in the vocab deck.

Core 6000 step recommendation - trusmis - 2010-05-16

I am going Core 6000 on sentence basis.
It is true that I have the feeling that I am not really learning the meanings of the words very deeply.
On the other hand, if I pre-study meaning of words and later want to learn sentences, I think sentences will be too boring as the grammar is simple and the meaning sand kanji, I would already know ....

Core 6000 step recommendation - Amado - 2010-05-16

I wonder how the core 2k and 6k were selected. I was searching for a list of most common words to study and found the core lists, what's the difference between those lists and the 1945 basic kanji list, I think it is also the most common words used in Japanese.
So if I want to study basic vocabulary plus its kanji (as a beginner), which list is better, the 2k core list or the 1945 kanji list, or should I study them together?

Core 6000 step recommendation - Nukemarine - 2010-05-16

The Core series is based off a frequency list of common words in Japanese newspapers. As such, many "common" words appearing early are actually kind of difficult from an early learner point of view. This fault has been discussed before. I think Cangy's sorted list is the best answer to this. You get a frequency list so it's a good "bang for your buck" but it's sort in a more intuitive order helping you learn more faster.

Core 6000 step recommendation - TaylorSan - 2010-05-16

For me learning vocab in sentences was really a bad move - They become encoded as a string of words that is THAT sentence - so it seemed more like I learned a sentence more than each individual word. Using and hearing a word learned inside a sentence was/is much less successful for me then if I focus on it in isolation.

I realized how bad it was when I couldn't say 緑　in a conversation, with out thinking of the entire sentence that I learned it in (it was in the middle of the sentence). I laughed about it at first, but every week my language partner would teasing me ask me how to say "green", and I couldn't do it - without the damn sentence....

To me, this is one of the BIG problems the AJATT method perpetrates (at least the way I interpreted the method).

And I only am sharing my personal experience - I suppose different things work for different people. But I hope that a new person using sentences only considers this. There is also a pretty good thread somewhere where vocab decks were discussed, and I know I'm not alone in experiencing these problems. I highly recommend that thread (sorry - too lazy to find and post - anyone remember it? - If I remember correctly Icecream really dropped some science on it about how she did the 6k as vocab, and it seemed like a few people got on board with vocab decks - I know I did and it's one of the best change of strategies I've had thus far).

Core 6000 step recommendation - nest0r - 2010-05-16

TaylorSan Wrote:For me learning vocab in sentences was really a bad move - They become encoded as a string of words that is THAT sentence - so it seemed more like I learned a sentence more than each individual word. Using and hearing a word learned inside a sentence was/is much less successful for me then if I focus on it in isolation.

I realized how bad it was when I couldn't say 緑　in a conversation, with out thinking of the entire sentence that I learned it in (it was in the middle of the sentence). I laughed about it at first, but every week my language partner would teasing me ask me how to say "green", and I couldn't do it - without the damn sentence....

To me, this is one of the BIG problems the AJATT method perpetrates (at least the way I interpreted the method).

And I only am sharing my personal experience - I suppose different things work for different people. But I hope that a new person using sentences only considers this. There is also a pretty good thread somewhere where vocab decks were discussed, and I know I'm not alone in experiencing these problems. I highly recommend that thread (sorry - too lazy to find and post - anyone remember it? - If I remember correctly Icecream really dropped some science on it about how she did the 6k as vocab, and it seemed like a few people got on board with vocab decks - I know I did and it's one of the best change of strategies I've had thus far).
Sounds to me like you were doing it wrong and blaming sentences: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?pid=99562#pid99562

Core 6000 step recommendation - TaylorSan - 2010-05-16

Yeah that could be. Maybe the main part of the problem was having sentences as "i+2-5" that made things that way (I was doing sentences only before these sorted lists). Perhaps true i+1 sentences, such as a perfectly sorted order would be a great sentence-vocab strategy.

I did learn vocab doing sentences, just not as cleanly.

And I'm not NOT doing sentences either. I just like to focus on the vocab in isolation, then use sentences as a step up/reading practice exercise. With the vocab lists I can also train writing, and learn the dictionary form. And I look at example sentences when I do the vocab cards.

Then when I go through my sentence deck it's a quick, smooth read, as I really know the vocab.

Core 6000 step recommendation - Amado - 2010-05-16

I think sentences are good to give a feel of how the word is used, for me I would go through the list once studying the sentences and the second reviewing only the words.

Also thanks Nuke and Cangy for the sorted list, I didn't know about it. It would be best if the words are listed according to the subject though, maybe I will try to sort them myself during studying.

I still wonder what's the relation between the joyo kanji and the core list, I mean does the kanji in the core list encompass most or all of the joyo kanji?

Core 6000 step recommendation - Asriel - 2010-05-16

Katsuo Wrote:The coverage in Core 6000 1-12 (4,000 sentences) is:
Total kanji: 1,593
Joyo kanji: 1,486
Non-Joyo kanji: 107
Source: Katsuo in http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=5519

Core 6000 step recommendation - Nukemarine - 2010-05-16

Amado Wrote:Also thanks Nuke and Cangy for the sorted list, I didn't know about it. It would be best if the words are listed according to the subject though, maybe I will try to sort them myself during studying.

I still wonder what's the relation between the joyo kanji and the core list, I mean does the kanji in the core list encompass most or all of the joyo kanji?
It was all Cangy about the sorted list. About the sorting based on the subject (actual vocabulary word), that's not as good an idea as you think. Reason being, the sentence might contain more advanced words. Not a show stopper, but it works against learning the word better for guys like me that depend more on the sentence than the definition.

My experience on the matter was when I started subs2srs, I'd activate new words from that in my vocabulary deck (mentioned above). This became difficult because of words in the sample sentence I didn't know so I started activating words that were in the sentence that were also vocabulary entries. This smoothed out the learning.

Cangy sorting the list based on the sentences was genius. I first suggested sorting the vocabulary words, but the benefits of a sorted sentence just jumped off the screen.

Now, later on if you learn vocabulary words without sentences (Jarvik does this and IceCream did it with Core 6k) then a sorted vocabulary list might be useful. If you lean on sentences though, probably best to use them sorted instead.

About the Core List: It was developed from a Newspaper Frequency list that was in the public domain. That's all. As such, MOST of the Joyo will be covered in the Core list just by virtue of both being "common use". There's some not covered in the overlap, but that can be found through database manipulation.