kanji koohii FORUM
improving pronunciation ... in English! - Printable Version

+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: Off topic (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-13.html)
+--- Thread: improving pronunciation ... in English! (/thread-5595.html)

Pages: 1 2

improving pronunciation ... in English! - trusmis - 2010-05-09

I am a non native speaker of English living in Japan. Even when I think my grammar and vocabulary is as good or as bad as an average English native speaker, I know my English pronunciation is pretty bad.
For instance, till not long ago I didn't know 'v' and 'b' are different so I would pronounce "very" as "bery".

For some reason the Japanese I met here seem to assume foreigners have a perfect English. I have been asked many times to teach them (informally or as exchange) English. And I have committed myself to one of those exchanges.
I still have some time (we will start in early June) so suddenly I want to do what I should have done years ago, improve my pronunciation.

But I really have no clue how. I also have no native speaker around here to practice with.
I can only think about watching movies and stop after every utterance and repeat till it sounds similar, if my ear is able to know the difference.

improving pronunciation ... in English! - trusmis - 2010-05-09

BTW, I know there are another thread about problem speaking in English. But that topic is more about complaining how much English retreats in our brain as Japanese takes positions Tongue
Also I guess, tips here can be useful for other languages.

improving pronunciation ... in English! - bflatnine - 2010-05-09

"Chorusing" is the best way I've found to improve pronunciation. Get some short chunks of audio (sentences) containing sounds or combinations of sounds that are difficult for you, preferably in a fairly standard accent. Pick one and put it on repeat. Just listen for the first several repetitions and then start speaking along with the recording. While you're speaking, you should listen to how you sound in comparison to the recording and make any adjustments you need until you sound just like it. Keep repeating it for a few minutes. Make sure you say it the right way more times that you say it the wrong way (otherwise you will have spent all that time to practice saying it the wrong way). Move on to the next track.

This is great to do while you're driving somewhere. It's pretty boring if you're just sitting there in front of your computer. But it's the most effective way I know of to improve your accent. The nature of the short chunks of audio means you can practice that 3 or 5 second long clip 100 or 60 times in five minutes.

improving pronunciation ... in English! - iSoron - 2010-05-09

1. Learn the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)
2. Create a deck: usual spelling → IPA
3. Shadow every text available at librivox.org; mine words you get wrong.

That's what I've been wanting to do for quite some time now, but never got myself enough free time. It should work... I guess.

improving pronunciation ... in English! - Jarvik7 - 2010-05-09

No offence, but 1 and 2 sound like complete nonsense to me. The hardest part of getting good pronunciation is in moving your mouth into the proper shapes with ease not in remembering what the pronunciation should be. There is also the issue of not being able to discern between sounds that are not in your native language or not differentiated (r and l in Japanese for example). None of those issues will be solved by SRSing the IPA. IPA is a tool for linguists, not SL learners.

Shadowing (3) is a good idea, but conversation with natives (LOTS of it) is the best if you can do it. It's also useful to just listen to lots of Japanese (tv news etc) while you're doing other tasks.

improving pronunciation ... in English! - iSoron - 2010-05-09

Jarvik7 Wrote:The hardest part of getting good pronunciation is in moving your mouth into the proper shapes with ease not in remembering what the pronunciation should be.
Most words I mispronounce in English I do because I don't know which phoneme to use, or because I have learn it wrong, not because I can't articulate, say, dental fricative consonants properly.

Quote:There is also the issue of not being able to discern between sounds that are not in your native language or not differentiated (r and l in Japanese for example).
By studying the IPA you become aware that they are not the same phoneme; the next time you listen to said sounds, you pay attention, and you learn the difference.

Quote:IPA is a tool for linguists, not SL learners.
Who cares? It's a great tool. Big Grin

By the way, I'm talking about learning English pronunciation. You don't need IPA for Japanese; the かな is phonetic enough.

improving pronunciation ... in English! - Jarvik7 - 2010-05-09

Having an IPA production SRS etc certainly won't hurt (unless you become too deliberate in your pronunciation), but it's mistargeted effort. It would be like trying to get in shape by SRSing various pushup techniques.

Produce to produce

improving pronunciation ... in English! - trusmis - 2010-05-09

Thanks for the answers, I try to make a summary of what I have understood so far.

First step:
Be sure of knowing the sounds of English (the IPA), this involves two capabilities:
- Hearing: Be able to distinguish between sounds, at least for specially prepared minimal pairs of words.
- Producing: Be able to produce the correct sound for at least those words.

Once one knows how things sound like and is confident to be able to pronounce it the next step

Pronunciation of individual words:

If one is able to really distinguish all the sounds (so one would hear a word for the first time and be able to write down its IPA without mistakes) then, just watch movies and learn! (I can do this in Japanese for instance).
If one is like me that only distinguish like 6 vowels (of 12 I think English has) in real speech then hearing a lot will not help improving (as I will keep hearing mistaken sounds and producing them like that). Instead SRSing for real pronunciations will help.

I am not sure how shadowing will help.
If for instance 'a' in 'cat' and 'u' in 'but' sound the same for me, I will shadow them and be happy with the result I am hearing as I can not distinguish between me and the recorded speech.

improving pronunciation ... in English! - danieldesu - 2010-05-09

Jarvik7 Wrote:conversation with natives (LOTS of it) is the best if you can do it
This seems like it would work, but surprisingly for the majority of people it really does not. I'm not sure the reason, but it could be that people spend the majority of time listening for meaning, not to the way their conversation partner talks. So if it is to be effective, it will take a special effort in listening. I think Pimsleur, as artificial as it is, is great because you are really forced to just listen to the way the speaker talks (although it works best if you don't already know the language). It think they offer ESL courses in Pimsleur for a variety of languages.

improving pronunciation ... in English! - Jarvik7 - 2010-05-09

danieldesu Wrote:This seems like it would work, but surprisingly for the majority of people it really does not. I'm not sure the reason, but it could be that people spend the majority of time listening for meaning, not to the way their conversation partner talks. So if it is to be effective, it will take a special effort in listening. I think Pimsleur, as artificial as it is, is great because you are really forced to just listen to the way the speaker talks (although it works best if you don't already know the language). It think they offer ESL courses in Pimsleur for a variety of languages.
It doesn't work as well for people who start doing it too late and have already cemented their accent. It is possible to fix, but it takes a lot more conscious effort. Many beginners feel silly trying to produce authentic accents (in a class) or talking to themselves (solo practice), and before they know it it becomes cemented. If you are talking with and surrounded by natives from the beginning, you have to try for correct accent else no one will understand you. There is a big difference between beginners who study in Japan and beginners who study in Canada (for example).

As for English.. as long as you are easily understandable then I don't think you should really bother trying to perfect your accent. Unlike Japanese, having a foreign accent in English is perfectly acceptable and even sexually desirable (depending on your native language). If you want to perfect your English accent, you'd also have to choose which one to emulate. There is no English 標準語 to strive for. Having poor grammar or using weird phrasing is a much bigger deal breaker in English.

improving pronunciation ... in English! - aphasiac - 2010-05-09

i spent quite a while helping a native Japanese lose their accent; see this thread:

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?pid=61382#pid61382

In the end she bought this book, and it really helped doing the mouth, tongue and pronunciation exercises:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Get-Rid-Your-Accent-Pronunciation/dp/0955330009/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258101214&sr=8-1

I guess it's aimed at British English, and would work better with a partner - but yes, recommend getting that book.

improving pronunciation ... in English! - Jarvik7 - 2010-05-09

I wish my jpgf spoke with a British English accent. Right now she's in a no-man's land between Japanese accent and western Canadian English. It's not Japanese enough to be cute and not Canadian enough to be natural.

uncanny valley?

(actually I wish she couldn't speak English)

improving pronunciation ... in English! - Kubelek - 2010-05-09

I learned how to distinguish th from f and voiced th from d after several months of being immersed in the US. You must know that feeling of incredulity when you find out that you've been saying it wrong for years.

If you don't have a native speaker with angelic patience around you could use the second best thing I've found:

American accent training
http://www.amazon.com/American-Accent-Training-Book-Audio/dp/0764173693

it's on every torrent website if you want to take a look before purchasing. I've found it really helpful even after months of practice with native speakers.

If I remember right this book has it all, minimal pairs practice, mouth diagrams. If not then try to look for some.

In my experience distinguishing sounds by ear came immediately after learning how to say them right. It will be hard without help, so maybe you'll have to reverse that order.

If you want to sound good you should also practice cadence. Am accent training has those too. Cadence is the melody of the language. It's important, but I suppose there are many varieties of English with very different musicality to them, so having one that is not Golden American Standard TM is not as critical.

IPA people: I like IPA, if you understand it you know what to do with your mouth. It was a source of many revelations to me. If you articulate certain sounds wrong, no matter how great they sound isolated, in fluent speech you'll sound badly (bad?), because your tongue has to move more than necessary. At least that's my theory Smile

OT: I like how Polish has 'chi' 'shi' and 'za' row sounds of Japanese. Most of you tube celebrities (not talking about Khatz here, I haven't watched it in a long time) pronounce them quite poorly.
EDIT: so apparently wikipedia phonology charts lie and they are not identical. So much for being a smartass :/

Good luck Smile

improving pronunciation ... in English! - Javizy - 2010-05-09

I actually had to learn voiced 'th' recently because it's replaced with 'f' (fink) and 'v' (muver) as part of an East London accent. I literally made it to age 24 without even realising the sound existed. My tongue doesn't like having the extra work to do, what with pronouncing T's as well...

improving pronunciation ... in English! - nest0r - 2010-05-09

Apparently in Arizona, they're banning people with accents from teaching English.

improving pronunciation ... in English! - JimmySeal - 2010-05-09

Arizona's just filled with the sweetest policy makers, isn't it?

improving pronunciation ... in English! - incepator - 2010-05-10

Please look at this site.

http://www.uiowa.edu/%7Eacadtech/phonetics/#

It helped me a lot.

IPA is great after you learn it. When you look up a word in a dictionary you can also learn how to pronounce it correctly.

improving pronunciation ... in English! - caivano - 2010-05-10

I personally prefer foreign English accents to kind of (I can see what you're trying to do there) native accents. I mean if its *perfect* then obviously thats good but otherwise.

improving pronunciation ... in English! - Smackle - 2010-05-10

A foreign accent can be a detriment in that people will often assume you're not very good at that language. (I personally prefer native English accents.)

improving pronunciation ... in English! - Jarvik7 - 2010-05-10

Smackle Wrote:A foreign accent can be a detriment in that people will often assume you're not very good at that language. (I personally prefer native English accents.)
There is a difference (in English) between speaking with an accent and speaking with a heavy accent. A slight accent is preferable to having a native accent, which is preferable to having a thick accent. Of course, only European accents are desirable for some reason.

In Japan having ANY accent other than 標準語 is bad, even if it's from a Japanese regional dialect, unless you want to be a 芸能人/comedian in which case Kansai dialect is useful. When I interviewed at one company here they were specifically concerned that I might have an Osaka accent, since it's where I first learned Japanese. They were relieved to find that I speak 標準語.

improving pronunciation ... in English! - kapalama - 2010-05-10

Jarvik7 Wrote:It's not Japanese enough to be cute and not Canadian enough to be natural.


improving pronunciation ... in English! - Jarvik7 - 2010-05-10

Your point being? Japan isn't in Europe and my girlfriend's accent isn't slight. Tongue

improving pronunciation ... in English! - loonytik - 2010-05-10

Jarvik7 Wrote:
Smackle Wrote:A foreign accent can be a detriment in that people will often assume you're not very good at that language. (I personally prefer native English accents.)
There is a difference (in English) between speaking with an accent and speaking with a heavy accent. A slight accent is preferable to having a native accent, which is preferable to having a thick accent. Of course, only European accents are desirable for some reason.
Its also differs from people to people. If they say an guy has an accent. I am Dutch myself and posted a sample of my talking to some guys I am frequently chat with. Some sad that I have an thick accent and some other people sad they couldn' t detect a accent at all. Me myself would say I have an slight accent.

improving pronunciation ... in English! - kazelee - 2010-05-10

I'm American and I don't even speak with an American accent.

@loonytik

Once you pass a certain point of understandability most people don't notice the accent. Then there are some who are just being polite.

I think the types of mistakes you make are what determines whether or not a person notices your accent. I had an ESOL Chinese friend who had lyrical quality to her English. Even with this, the only time I noticed her accent was when she called me Damas. Her T's sounds almost like d's. However, when she didn't make this mistake I didn't notice her accent.

improving pronunciation ... in English! - nest0r - 2010-05-10

What type and level of accent is unacceptable for English, why is it unacceptable, and in comparison to what?

Edited Related: http://www.pbs.org/speak/ahead/globalamerican/global/ - I guess we've already got a thread or two about this topic, though... (tangentially: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?pid=43451#pid43451)