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+--- Thread: Kanji-logic (e.g. 親 (parents) + 切 (cut) = "kindness"???) (/thread-5548.html)
Kanji-logic (e.g. 親 (parents) + 切 (cut) = "kindness"???) - gfb345 - 2010-05-02
Most kanji compounds I run into make at least some sense, but now and then I run into some that defy all logic. (Of course, I'm excluding proper names from this, as well as "true ateji" (当て字) like 風呂 (furo=Japanese bath), which at least make some sense once one understands how they came about.)
Take for example: the word for kindness, 親切 (しんせつ), made up of 親 (parents/relatives) and 切 (cut). (This is clearly not an 当て字, since its pronunciation follows directly from the standard 音読み of its components). Whatever echo of kindness one may sense in 親 is completely negated by the most unkind 切. As far as memorability goes, the combination 親切 is no better for me than a random one (which means that I need to use Heisig's method all over again to remember the whole compound).
I can't imagine that 親切 would make any more sense to a Japanese person than it does to me (but maybe I'm wrong about this).
Does anyone know of a reference work devoted to making sense of such seemingly non-sensical kanji combinations? (This assumes, of course, that such combinations are numerous/puzzling enough to warrant such a work, which may not be the case.)
Kanji-logic (e.g. 親 (parents) + 切 (cut) = "kindness"???) - bodhisamaya - 2010-05-02
A parent cutting the umbilical cord.
Kanji-logic (e.g. 親 (parents) + 切 (cut) = "kindness"???) - Kewickviper - 2010-05-02
Using rikaikun on chrome it gives the meanings of 親 and 切 respectively as parents/parent/founder/owner and eager/ernest/kind/keen. So it does match if you don't use heisig keywords.
Kanji-logic (e.g. 親 (parents) + 切 (cut) = "kindness"???) - JimmySeal - 2010-05-02
This is the first match that came up on Google when I searched for [親切 語源] and it explains everything you need to know to answer your question
http://gogen-allguide.com/si/shinsetsu.html
Don't forget that 親 also contains the meaning conveyed by 親しい. How 切 is related, is a bit more opaque.
Quote:(This is clearly not an 当て字, since its pronunciation follows directly from the standard 音読み of its components).I don't know what led you to make this conclusion. Where is it written that ateji never use the established readings for their characters? Nonetheless, you are correct in concluding that this compound is not ateji.
Kanji-logic (e.g. 親 (parents) + 切 (cut) = "kindness"???) - gfb345 - 2010-05-02
Kewickviper Wrote:Using rikaikun on chrome it gives the meanings of 親 and 切 respectively as parents/parent/founder/owner and eager/ernest/kind/keen. So it does match if you don't use heisig keywords.Well, not really: it just pushes the conundrum to the single character 切: how come it means two nearly opposite things? But I can see how "cut" led to "keen". From there to "kindness" is a bit of a stretch, but plausible. Thanks.
Kanji-logic (e.g. 親 (parents) + 切 (cut) = "kindness"???) - Asriel - 2010-05-02
深切 DEEP CUT!
Kanji-logic (e.g. 親 (parents) + 切 (cut) = "kindness"???) - yudantaiteki - 2010-05-02
You will come across these rather often because the meanings of kanji are always things assigned by dictionary or textbook writers, based on the words they are used to write.
The Koujien classifies this under the meaning of "earnest" and also includes 大切 and 切に望む.
Quote:how come it means two nearly opposite things?It could be that these should really be considered two separate morphemes, but that a single character was chosen to represent both. Sometimes you also find that with simple characters, they have a variety of unrelated meanings because they were used in place of more complicated characters. One example of this is 占, which originally just mean fortune telling but later gained the totally unrelated meaning of "occupy" because it was used in place of a more complicated character that was pronounced the same way.
Kanji-logic (e.g. 親 (parents) + 切 (cut) = "kindness"???) - gfb345 - 2010-05-02
JimmySeal Wrote:As I emphasized earlier in my post, when I used 当て字 I meant it in the strictest sense of the term (I wrote "true ateji"). This is to distinguish them from 熟字訓. The distinction is necessary because, as you yourself wrote in a different thread:gfb345 Wrote:(This is clearly not an 当て字, since its pronunciation follows directly from the standard 音読み of its components).I don't know what led you to make this conclusion. Where is it written that ateji never use the established readings for their characters? Nonetheless, you are correct in concluding that this compound is not ateji.
JimmySeal Wrote:In the strictest sense, jukujikun is not ateji, which means that ateji is a term that has been diluted to encompass both concepts.Anyway, if you know of such a "true" 当て字 whose pronunciation follows from the standard reading of its components, please let me know. (If such exists, it would make the whole concept of a true 当て字 practically meaningless, but hey, who am I to say?)
Thanks for the link to http://gogen-allguide.com. It did not dispel my puzzlement over 切="kind" all that much, but this is probably due to my still very weak reading abilities.
Kanji-logic (e.g. 親 (parents) + 切 (cut) = "kindness"???) - gfb345 - 2010-05-02
yudantaiteki Wrote:You will come across these rather often because the meanings of kanji are always things assigned by dictionary or textbook writers, based on the words they are used to write.That's what crossed my mind when I saw that one meaning for 切 is "kind". I.e., that is a "back-formation" (of sorts) from the "kindness" expressed by 親切. The link that JimmySeal posted says:
...「切」は刃物をじかに当てるように「身近である」「行き届く」という意味がある。
...which, from the little I can decipher (using Rikaikun), is about as clear as mud. If that's really the origin, it looks to me like an exceptionally inept coinage, at best.
Kanji-logic (e.g. 親 (parents) + 切 (cut) = "kindness"???) - JimmySeal - 2010-05-02
gfb345 Wrote:Anyway, if you know of such a "true" 当て字 whose pronunciation follows from the standard reading of its components, please let me know. (If such exists, it would make the whole concept of a true 当て字 practically meaningless, but hey, who am I to say?)I have no idea what you are talking about here. How would it make the concept of "true ateji" meaningless?
Anyway, here are a few examples of "true ateji" that use standard readings:
泰
加奈陀
伊太利亜
印度
Quote:...which, from the little I can decipher (using Rikaikun), is about as clear as mud. If that's really the origin, it looks to me like an exceptionally inept coinage, at best.So you're saying that you can't really read what the explanation says, but nonetheless, it's inept? Yeah, that makes sense.
Quote:切: how come it means two nearly opposite things?For one thing, it doesn't mean "kindness." It means "nearby" or "through and through." For another thing, can you show me an example where it means the opposite of kindness, or either of those other meanings?
yudantaiteki Wrote:It could be that these should really be considered two separate morphemes, but that a single character was chosen to represent both.I doubt this. This usage dates back to 論語 (~5th century BCE), and the meaning comes from the original, intrinsic meaning of the character.
Kanji-logic (e.g. 親 (parents) + 切 (cut) = "kindness"???) - gfb345 - 2010-05-02
JimmySeal Wrote:Anyway, here are a few examples of "true ateji" that use standard readings:I stand corrected. My original reason for concluding that 親切 is not a true 当て字 is that 親切 is clearly 漢語, and therefore does not fit the two classes of words that all true 当て字 I know of come from, namely, 和語 words like 風呂 or 鳥渡, or else geographical 外来語 words (like the examples you posted). But, in trying to render this rationale more succinctly, I managed once again to mix up 当て字 and 熟字訓. At least there's no argument that whatever semantic difficulty there may be with 親切, it is not due to its being a (true) 当て字.
泰
加奈陀
伊太利亜
印度
JimmySeal Wrote:Thanks for your "help". (Your kind of "kindness" somehow makes the "cut" in 親切 fit right in. I guess this is an "object lesson"?gfb345 Wrote:...which, from the little I can decipher (using Rikaikun), is about as clear as mud. If that's really the origin, it looks to me like an exceptionally inept coinage, at best.So you're saying that you can't really read what the explanation says, but nonetheless, it's inept? Yeah, that makes sense.
)Anyway, the fact that the entry begins with the somewhat embarrassing clarification:
親切は、「親を切る」という意味ではない。
already suggests there's some ineptitude in the coinage, wouldn't you say?
JimmySeal Wrote:Cool, tell that to the EDICT folks (I believe EDICT is the source for Rikaikun). Rikaikun sez:gfb345 Wrote:切: how come it means two nearly opposite things?For one thing, it doesn't mean "kindness." It means "nearby" or "through and through."
切 せつ
(adj-na,n) eager; earnest; ardent; kind; keen; acute
JimmySeal Wrote:For another thing, can you show me an example where it means the opposite of kindness, or either of those other meanings?The character means "cut", which is usually regarded as pretty unkind.
Kanji-logic (e.g. 親 (parents) + 切 (cut) = "kindness"???) - JimmySeal - 2010-05-02
gfb345 Wrote:Anyway, the fact that the entry begins with the somewhat embarrassing clarification:Are you sure you know what "inept" means? There's nothing inept about the coinage of the word, and that sentence is not embarrasing. It just shows that the word can be confusing to people trying to pull it apart without having all of their information straight.
親切は、「親を切る」という意味ではない。
already suggests there's some ineptitude in the coinage, wouldn't you say?
To top it all off, a little bit of thought would reveal that the interpretation 「親を切る」doesn't even make any sense because the characters are in the wrong order for that.
Nobody needs to be told, 親切は、「親を切る」という意味ではない。 It was just a tounge-in-cheek comment to acknowledge that it can lead to some wacky interpretations if you don't think about it too hard.
Quote:Cool, tell that to the EDICT folks (I believe EDICT is the source for Rikaikun). Rikaikun sez:Yeah, I'll get right on that. Or maybe I'll just remind myself that EDICT is a casual dictionary made by someone in their free time for beginner-level students of Japanese, and not use it when I need an accurate answer.
切 せつ
(adj-na,n) eager; earnest; ardent; kind; keen; acute
Quote:The character means "cut", which is usually regarded as pretty unkind.So all of a sudden you're an authority on nuances of idea of "cut" in ancient China. Please tell me how you go about absorbing the sensibilities of (extinct) cultures so effortlessly.
Kanji-logic (e.g. 親 (parents) + 切 (cut) = "kindness"???) - jpkuelho - 2010-05-02
gfb345 Wrote:I think it was easier if you said "I was wrong, thanks.", instead of all this speech. just my opnionJimmySeal Wrote:Anyway, here are a few examples of "true ateji" that use standard readings:I stand corrected. My original reason for concluding that 親切 is not a true 当て字 is that 親切 is clearly 漢語, and therefore does not fit the two classes of words that all true 当て字 I know of come from, namely, 和語 words like 風呂 or 鳥渡, or else geographical 外来語 words (like the examples you posted). But, in trying to render this rationale more succinctly, I managed once again to mix up 当て字 and 熟字訓. At least there's no argument that whatever semantic difficulty there may be with 親切, it is not due to its being a (true) 当て字.
泰
加奈陀
伊太利亜
印度
Kanji-logic (e.g. 親 (parents) + 切 (cut) = "kindness"???) - gfb345 - 2010-05-03
jpkuelho Wrote:You are right. I was wrong, thanks.gfb345 Wrote:I think it was easier if you said "I was wrong, thanks.", instead of all this speech. just my opnionJimmySeal Wrote:Anyway, here are a few examples of "true ateji" that use standard readings:I stand corrected. My original reason for concluding that 親切 is not a true 当て字 is that 親切 is clearly 漢語, and therefore does not fit the two classes of words that all true 当て字 I know of come from, namely, 和語 words like 風呂 or 鳥渡, or else geographical 外来語 words (like the examples you posted). But, in trying to render this rationale more succinctly, I managed once again to mix up 当て字 and 熟字訓. At least there's no argument that whatever semantic difficulty there may be with 親切, it is not due to its being a (true) 当て字.
泰
加奈陀
伊太利亜
印度