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good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - thegeezer3 - 2007-05-28
Hi there,
I want to buy a dictionary which has accurate example sentances for every entry and written in furigana and kanji. Id like one for my pc so i can use copy and paste to add entrys to mnemosyne to save time as well. What are the good ones out there?
I will also need one for when im on the go. I have a Pocket Pc and a PSP (no homebrew as of yet) which could be put to use for this. Which book or software would be good? With regards to books, size would be important as i dont want to be carrying a multivolume book with me everyday. Also if there is a dicitonary that is japanese to japanese for intermediate level that would be perfect. An electronic dictionary or palm would require extra money and unless there amazing id prefer to stick with the resources i already have. Again the accuracy of the example sentances is very important.
I have used Jim breens free dictionary but the problem is that his example sentances tend to be wrong or considered unnatural. Id much rather just pay for something that is correct than having to get people to verify the accuracy of sentances.
any help appreciated.
good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - resolve - 2007-06-01
The main format used in Japan is EPWING, plus a bunch of proprietary formats. Some dictionaries sell an EPWING version, others are often convertible with tools available on the internet. If you get an EPWING dictionary, you can use viewers on PCs, and handheld devices like Palm Pilots.
The best English/Japanese dictionary is probably the "green goddess" - Kenkyusha's eiwadaijiten and waeidaijiten. Genius also has a good reputation. The former is somewhat expensive though, at about 25,000yen for both eiwa and waei.
This is actually a topic which I've been looking into over the past week or so. My current pet-project is figuring out if it's possible to convert an EPWING dictionary to Casio's electronic dictionary's 追加カード. Anyone with experience there?
good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - thegeezer3 - 2007-06-01
ive looked into this format and ive found a good site that gives screenshots of the various dictionaries at
http://www.japaneselanguagetools.com/index.html
what i realise is that in the begining i would like to be able to enter searches in kana as im kanji wont be so hot. Does the green godess allow that? And does it have a furigana or kana only option? do any of the others? The examples look pretty good and if its an official publication should be very accurate.
good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - resolve - 2007-06-01
If you look at the pictures in http://www.japaneselanguagetools.com/Kenkyusha.html you can see that each dictionary entry contains both kana and kanji. The dictionary should be indexed by kana as well, so you can look up things just by entering the kana.
If you don't want to spend so much money to start out with, consider getting their 中 (intermediate) version.
good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - syntoad - 2007-06-01
I have recently discovered WaKan (http://wakan.manga.cz) It's probably not exactly what you're looking for since it uses the edict files (from jim breen's site) for the dictionary and example sentences, but I figured I'd mention it since I'm in love with a lot of the features.
good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - Megaqwerty - 2007-06-01
I've been using Wakan for some time as well, but I have one major gripe with it: it doesn't support Japanese or Chinese input, rather ironically.
good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - dilandau23 - 2007-06-02
Megaqwerty Wrote:I've been using Wakan for some time as well, but I have one major gripe with it: it doesn't support Japanese or Chinese input, rather ironically.Sure it does. Otherwise how would you use it?
I think Wakan is great, not sure if I could live without it. I wish it was still updated though.
good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - thegeezer3 - 2007-10-23
ok update - found the green godess dictionary absolutely brilliant. Its japanese to english and full of excellent example sentances.
I now want a monolingual dictionary. Ive read about the national dictionarys that are like those humongous oxford multi volume ones which have definitions of a word spanning pages and containing even more difficult words than the one you were looking up.
Ive also tried sanseido on the internet but i find it also uses big words sometimes and other itmes it just chucks out a synonym which might be ok for a japanese person but i need an actual definition.
Are there any intermediate monodics out there? the definitions are short, effective and use relatively unstuffy language. Almost like it was written by kids????
whats the japanese term for concise????
good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - shaydwyrm - 2007-10-23
I've been using dic.yahoo.co.jp as my monodic. It has two J-J dictionaries, so sometimes if I don't understand one I can switch and the other is easier. It's not as concise as Sanseido, but has more thorough definitions as a result. Also, it doesn't so much have example sentences, but the usage examples are nonetheless useful. If I need example sentences I usually get them from GG. Anyway it's free!
good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - dilandau23 - 2007-10-23
thegeezer3 Wrote:Are there any intermediate monodics out there? the definitions are short, effective and use relatively unstuffy language. Almost like it was written by kids?You could try チャレンジ小学国語辞典
You can read a recommendation for it here.
good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - orochi - 2007-10-24
As dilandau23 mentioned, a 国語 dictionary aimed at elementary school students might be good for an intermediate learner.
If you are feeling adventurous and want an "adult" dictionary, I highly recommend the 明鏡国語辞典. It's the best 国語 dictionary out there.
good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - Megaqwerty - 2007-10-24
dilandau23 Wrote:Actually, it doesn't: Wakan doesn't support Unicode. I cannot go in and type something with an IME and get entries: I'll just get boxes. I can, however, go into something else, type my stuff, copy it, and then go back to Wakan. This is an issue with the code Wakan was built on. It's not too much an issue anyhow: I'm trying to switch to GG at the moment and this somewhat helps.Megaqwerty Wrote:I've been using Wakan for some time as well, but I have one major gripe with it: it doesn't support Japanese or Chinese input, rather ironically.Sure it does. Otherwise how would you use it?
good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - nac_est - 2007-10-24
dilandau23 Wrote:You could try チャレンジ小学国語辞典I have that dictionary. It's great, with simple and meaningful definitions, furigana everywhere and example sentences for almost every entry. It also has a cute 2-sided poster with the first 1000 kanji learned at school; I have that on my wall next to me
You can read a recommendation for it here.
It's not exactly a "pocket" size though, so it's not the best one to carry around, I guess.
good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - dilandau23 - 2007-10-24
Megaqwerty Wrote:Actually, it doesn't: Wakan doesn't support Unicode. I cannot go in and type something with an IME and get entries: I'll just get boxes. I can, however, go into something else, type my stuff, copy it, and then go back to Wakan. This is an issue with the code Wakan was built on. It's not too much an issue anyhow: I'm trying to switch to GG at the moment and this somewhat helps.I stand by the fact that it supports Japanese input. I didn't say it works with the IME that is something different. The bottom line is if you want a word in Japanese, unless you use kana input, you have to type the romaji anyway. There is also the (albeit a bit outdated in feel) built in IME in the Wakan editor.
As for the Kenkyusha (GG) dictionary, I bought a subscription to the online version just to give it a trial and I find eijiro (ALC) to be nearly equal or better than Kenkyusha in all respects (including usage examples). The two biggest being that it is free and has a larger selection of compound words and phrases. About the only thing I like more from Kenkyusha (I use KOD)are:
日本語表現活用辞典
類義語使い分け辞典
But they are not even searchable in the online version, you have to manually do look ups through a series of links. Not to mention they require you to pay more money for access to them.
All in all I think it is a fantastic dictionary but why pay so much when there is something almost exactly as good for free?
If you need something available for offline and electronic use that is something else entirely. In that case I think I would still pick eijiro.
Here is a good read on the topic.
good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - thegeezer3 - 2007-10-24
yes my earlier link from a months ago mentioned eijiro but then I read in a few places that the translations or example sentances are not always 100% right and are a bit unnatural. I think one site i read that was AJATT as he discusses dictionaries. Now i dont consider him to be the authoritative stance on japanese language so i was thinking about getting it.
Those other dictionaries? do they happen to be in a cd rom version as well...hmm ill check on amazon.
good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - resolve - 2007-10-24
I don't think they're equal, and I have both.
Eijirou is primarily natural English sentences translated into Japanese. The Japanese may be grammatically correct, but there's no guarantee what you're looking at is a natural expression. To the best of my knowledge, GG consists only of natural Japanese sentences which were subsequently translated into English. If I'm going to invest a lot of time into learning something, I want to be pretty sure it's natural.
good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - wrightak - 2007-10-24
Following resolve's suggestion from a different thread, I contacted the authors of Green Goddess and asked a few questions about their example sentences. I've included the email exchange below in case anyone is interested but the basic situation is as follows: They take Japanese words and assemble phrases where these words frequently occur. Japanese editors then write example sentences designed to illustrate the meaning of these phrases. English speaking editors then translate the sentences to give the English half of the sentence pair. For copyright reasons, they cannot take sentences from books, magazines, transcripts, emails etc. They therefore have to write the majority by themselves.
My conclusions: I think they're translation methods are infallable and the chances of reading poor quality sentence pairs is low. (Unlike EDICT's examples, many of which I have corrected). It's unfortunate that every sentence has been artificially created for the purpose of illustrating a word's meaning and it would be better if they used example sentences from real Japanese usage. However, you can't expect too much I suppose. What's crucial is that the Japanese always comes first. This is not true of EDICT examples and according to posts above, neither is it true of Eijirou.
I included the original Japanese and my hasty English translation just in case I've made some errors. If there are any or if people have comments about any incorrect/unnatural Japanese on my part then please let me know. Hope this helps.
---------
KODに登録したばかりです。編集方法の質問ですが、例文の選び方について教えていただきたいと思っています。
例えば、「素直」という単語を検査すると以下の情報がでます：
素直な性格 a gentle nature; a meek disposition
・素直な子供 a meek [an obedient] child
・素直な気持ちで with an open mind; in a teachable spirit
・子供の素直な目で見た国会 the Diet as seen through the naive eyes of children.
あの子は素直だ. His is a pliable disposition.
・彼は気が利かない男だが, 指示に対しては素直だ. He's not very smart, but he's willing to follow instructions.
・ これが結婚に対する今の若い女性の素直な気持ちでしょう. I suppose this is the honest attitude toward married life held by today's young women.
短い表現ももっと長い文もあります。聞きたいことは、英語が最初ですか、日本語が最初ですか？
英語が最初だったら、?a meek child?という英語の表現を元にして、「素直な子供」という日本語に訳すことになります。
この場合だったら、自然な英語の文を見て、同じ意味の日本語を書きます。
日本語が最初だったら、その逆になります。
どちらですか？
I have just registered to use the KOD online service. I have some questions concerning how the dictionary is written and I would like to ask about how example sentences are chosen.
For example, if you look up the word 素直 then the following information appears:
(see above)
There are both short phrases and longer sentences. What I would like to ask is which came first, the English sentences or the Japanese ones? If the English came first then ?a meek child? was taken and 素直な子供 was written as the appropriate translation. If this was the case then a natural English sentence was taken and a Japanese sentence with the same meaning was written. If the Japanese came first then the opposite would be the case.
------------------
10月17日付の『新和英大辞典』についてのご質問、拝受いたしました。
お手紙が日本語で書かれてありましたので、日本語で回答させていただきます。
ご質問の趣旨は、本辞典の日本語用例とその英語訳でどちらが先に存在していた
か、ということだと理解いたしました。結論を先に申しあげますと、日本語が先
にあります。そして、その日本語に対応する英語の句、ないし文章を英語で添え
るという方法を取っております。
この「すなお」について言いますと、まず「素直な」という日本語と共起
(collocate) する標準的な日本語のフレーズをあげて、そのあとに、今度は文例
(sentence examples) をあげる、という順序です。
参考までに、本辞典の「まえがき」の一部を下に引用いたしますので、ご覧いた
だければ幸いです。
=====引用開始=====/=====引用終了=====
作業手順としては, 日本語の専門家によって採録された日本語用例の英訳を英米
人執筆者のみで行い, それを日本人執筆者が元の日本語と見くらべて点検し, 必
要な修正を英米人執筆者に求める, という方式をとることによって生硬な日本語
と英語らしくない英語の排除を図りました.
=====引用終了=====
Thank you for your question that I received on the 17th of October.
Your letter was written in Japanese so I will take the liberty of replying in the same.
As I understand it, the object of your question is to determine which existed first, the Japanese example sentences or the English translations. I?ll start by giving the answer, the Japanese comes first. These Japanese phrases are then accompanied with English translations.
With your example of ?すなお?, we start with the word ?素直な? and then assemble standard phrases that feature this word and after that we give example sentences.
Please look at a section of the preface, which I have quoted below.
=============
As far as the editing procedure is concerned, example Japanese sentences transcribed by specialists were translated into English by English and American editors. Japanese editors then compare these translations with the Japanese originals and inspect them for any changes that might be necessary and consult once more with the English language editors. By using these methods we have tried to remove inappropriate Japanese examples and unnatural English.
=============
----------------------
お返事ありがとうございました。
私の質問の答えはわかりました。わかりやすく書いていただいてありがとうございます。
大変に迷惑いたしますが、質問はもう一つあります。
本辞典の中に答えが書いてあるかもしれませんが、
KOD Onlineだけ買いましたので、読めないと思います。
下に引用してくださった「まえがき」の一部を読むと、
採録された日本語用例が先に存在していると理解しています。
その日本語用例はどこから来ますか？
例えば、下の文はどなたに書かれた文ですか？
「これが結婚に対する今の若い女性の素直な気持ちでしょう. I suppose this is the honest attitude toward married life held by today's young women.」
日本人執筆者に書かれた用例ですか？
それか、実際にある雑誌とか新聞とか小説などから引用された用例ですか？
Thank you very much for your reply.
I understood your answer to my question and thank you for writing it in a fashion that was easy to understand.
I?m sorry to trouble you again but I have one more question. The answer to this question may be written within the actual book but I have only purchased the online edition so I don?t think I can read it.
Reading from the preface that you quoted in your previous email, I understand that it says that the Japanese example sentences exist before the English ones. Where do those Japanese example sentences come from? For example, who wrote the example quoted below?
「これが結婚に対する今の若い女性の素直な気持ちでしょう. I suppose this is the honest attitude toward married life held by today's young women.」
Was it written by one of the Japanese editors? Or alternatively, did it come from an actual magazine, newspaper, novel etc?
------------------------
『新和英大辞典』の日本語用例についてですが、その出典はいろいろなケースが
あると思います。本辞典は初版から数えて現在は第５版ですので、昔から引き継
がれている日本語の句例・文例については、さまざまな出典があるだろうと思わ
れます。
現在の第５版につきましては、前回のご返事にも書きましたように、「?作業手
順としては, 日本語の専門家によって採録された日本語用例の英訳を英米人執筆
者のみで行い?」ということです。
具体的には、「日本語の専門家がさまざまの国語辞典類を参照して自分で作りだ
した標準的な表現と思われる日本語表現」というのがいちばん適切だろうと思い
ます。具体的な著作物からの引用は、(皆無とは言えないでしょうが)版権の問題
などもありますので、おこなっておりません。
和英辞典は、現代の日本人が用いる標準的な日本語語彙、日本語表現をなんとか
英語に置き換えようとするものですので、たとえば、「潤沢な」という語があれ
ば、この語と非常によく共起する表現(「潤沢な資金」などなど)が可能な限り採
録されていることが望ましいことだと考えます。
それから、KOD和英は、『新和英大辞典』が元になっておりますが、その「まえ
がき」は、KOD和英検索画面の「メニュー」から読むことができますので、是非
ご参照ください。
Concerning the example sentences within the Shin Waei Dai Jiten, I think that there are various cases for where the sources come from. We are currently on the fifth edition, with example phrases and sentences being passed through from earlier ones, so it is thought that the sources are quite varied.
Concerning the current 5th edition, as I wrote in my last response, (See previous)
To put this in more detail, ?Specialists in Japanese language have consulted various Japanese-language dictionaries and have written, by themselves, Japanese phrases that are thought to be standard.? This would, I think, probably be the most appropriate description of what happens. Concrete quotations from literary works, (while not guaranteed to be absent) are not used due to copyright problems etc.
With the Waeijiten, we have tried to take vocabulary and phrases that are currently used by Japanese people and find English phrases that can replace them. For example, take the word ?潤沢な?, we try to look for and record only phrases that occur very frequently with this word, such as ?潤沢な資金? etc.
The KOD Japanese English dictionary is based on the Shin Waei Jiten and you can read the preface after clicking on the メニュー link on the search page. Please take a look.
good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - thegeezer3 - 2007-10-24
wow way to go wrightak. And thanks resolve for confirming my suspicions about eijiro. Its probably a great dictionary for japanese people and translators but I too want really natural japanese sentances.
So i looked up that shougakkou jisho and it looked good but sadly not in a pocket pc / epwing format. Are there any other books... ive tried searchign but couldnt find anything. But then im only entering 小学校辞書。 perhaps there are other terms that would help to narrow down the search results. Anyone know?
good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - yukamina - 2007-10-24
I found Proceed English Japanese Dictionary at the library; I think it's very good. It has sentence examples for almost all the words. The more important/common words have more sentences. I mean, I don't think it's the best for looking up words you come across since I think it has about 20 000 words, but I think the sentences are worth it.
good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - nac_est - 2007-10-25
thegeezer3 Wrote:...But then im only entering 小学校辞書。 perhaps there are other terms that would help to narrow down the search results. Anyone know?I know I'm saying something silly, but you could also try with 辞典.
good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - thegeezer3 - 2007-10-25
thanks but already tried that and got loads of different 辞典 jiten. science, law, french etc etc.
Im looking for the word japanese use to describe the dictionarys we would call concise.
anyway ive ordered that kids book. if anyone finds an epwing pc or pocket pc version of a CONCISE non stuffy dictionary then post it here!!!
cheers everyone.
good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - Aikiboy - 2007-10-26
Ok, here we go. I'd been drooling over the stylus input e dictionaries for a while now. Read a bunch, looked a lot, took brochures,etc. Then my friend broke his canon g55 a couple of weeks ago because he refuses to put it in a case. I suggested getting a little irate at Yamada Denki and lo and behold they gave him a brand-spanking new v300. Lucky bastard. At the time I had the g50 and it's been good to me. Coupled with the drool over his v300 and another friend wanting to buy his first e dictionary, I sold my g50 in order to upgrade. That was two weeks ago and I still can't decide which dictionary to get. Lot of pros and cons and was thinking casio or v300 canon.
Then I thought pda with dictionaries and since that market is dead in Japan I discovered UMPC. I believe it stands for Ultra Mobile PC. I'm thinking of loading it up with dictionaries, and anki, of course, plus all my music, ad infinitum.
Is anyone familiar with UMPCs? Are they worth it? I'm thinking of getting almost the only one I can find in Japan, the Kohjinsha SH8: http://www.kohjinsha.com/models/sh/lineupsh.html
7 " touch screen, 120gb hd, bluetooth and wi-fi, compact flash and 3-1 sd card slot. Best of all, just under one kilogram. Lugging my 17" widescreen plus books and gym bag is killing me! Pricier than a denshi jisho, but is awfully tempting.
I can see lots of advantages to this route, but can anyone see any disadvantages aside from the cost and start-up time of the pc compared to a dictionary. Any horror stories with the Kohjinsha sh series?(which is apparently a step up from the sa)
Cheers.
P.S. I forgot to mention the built-in camera and mic and one seg digital tv tuner.
good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - resolve - 2007-10-26
Looks very nice. Shame about the 3 hour battery life, though.
good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - Aikiboy - 2007-10-26
Yes, the battery is a let down. There is the option for a 32gb SSD/NAND memory instead of the hard drive, and although it should help in extending battery life, it also raises the price 100000 yen. They do sell a larger battery for 5 hour usage so I read in reviews. It adds a bit to weight I'm sure.
Something else to consider is the heaviness of VISTA on a slower 800Mhz processor. But this is all aside from using an UMPC with software dictionaries as an alternative to the new fancy-shmancy top of the line Japanese dictionaries.
The money is burning a hole in my pocket so somebody needs to give me a great reason not to get this as an early X-mas present for myself!
good dictionary -hard copy, pc, ppc, web? - Jarvik7 - 2008-04-07
resolve Wrote:This is actually a topic which I've been looking into over the past week or so. My current pet-project is figuring out if it's possible to convert an EPWING dictionary to Casio's electronic dictionary's 追加カード. Anyone with experience there?A very old post, but have you found anything in the way of convertors or addons for Casio? afaik its not a simple matter of converting since each dictionary is wrapped in their own program. I haven't found anything in the way of reverse engineering or hacking them :/ I'd be ecstatic if I could convert some of my many dictionaries I have on pc to work on my Casio so I could use them on the go.