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Merits of doing a textbook... - Tobberoth - 2010-04-20

yudantaiteki Wrote:I don't know about that; pretty much any job you work, even English teacher, you'll be expected to talk to your coworkers with desu/masu forms. Of course as a foreigner you can get away with not doing that, but that's usually not the optimum choice.
That's odd. From what I've heard, you're generally not allowed to speak Japanese in the workplace if you work as an English teacher.

Merits of doing a textbook... - Jarvik7 - 2010-04-20

Tobberoth Wrote:
yudantaiteki Wrote:I don't know about that; pretty much any job you work, even English teacher, you'll be expected to talk to your coworkers with desu/masu forms. Of course as a foreigner you can get away with not doing that, but that's usually not the optimum choice.
That's odd. From what I've heard, you're generally not allowed to speak Japanese in the workplace if you work as an English teacher.
It depends on the workplace. If you work at an eikaiwa you'll probably never speak Japanese to anyone. If you work as an ALT you have to speak Japanese in the office or else be a total outcast (no one will know enough English to speak comfortably, not even the English teachers). Using it in class is really only tolerated if your Japanese sucks. If the students know you can have a conversation, they'll never speak to you in English.

Merits of doing a textbook... - bizarrojosh - 2010-04-20

I working solely with textbooks at this point and I can say that my Japanese has grown exponentially. But then again, if i were working without text books would my knowledge grow faster? I don't know, but I know that the only thing that studying from my texts books that could possibly be harmful is that I'm learning "ridged" japanese in some cases. But as I see it, once I finish these books and move to to native material that should dissolve quickly, right?

Merits of doing a textbook... - b0ng0 - 2010-04-20

I used Genki I + II when I first started out, and found they had really good examples of grammer and a good pace.

Merits of doing a textbook... - yudantaiteki - 2010-04-20

Jarvik7 Wrote:It depends on the workplace. If you work at an eikaiwa you'll probably never speak Japanese to anyone. If you work as an ALT you have to speak Japanese in the office or else be a total outcast (no one will know enough English to speak comfortably, not even the English teachers). Using it in class is really only tolerated if your Japanese sucks. If the students know you can have a conversation, they'll never speak to you in English.
I used Japanese with the kids in middle school and elementary school a lot during lunch and outside of classes; particularly with elementary school students I thought the opportunity for them to speak with a foreigner (at all) was more valuable than trying to get them to stammer out "how are you".

Merits of doing a textbook... - Jarvik7 - 2010-04-20

@yudantaiteki:

I'm in complete agreement, but that's not how the schools think.

Merits of doing a textbook... - PParisi - 2010-05-15

First, I should say that I agree with those contributors who feel it necessary to use a textbook to work on their speaking skills. People have different learning styles, of course, and no doubt there are a few people out there who can learn how to speak from reading grammatical explanations at Tae Kim's site or from going methodically through the sentences in KO2001. I could never have learned that way.

Next, I have experience with the Minna no Nihongo series, the Shin Nihongo no Kiso series, and Japanese for Busy People. In my opinion the JBP series is the best of the three for self-study. The most obvious attraction is the cost. To get all of the books--text, workbook, kanji workbook, grammatical explanation book--for Minna no Nihongo or SNnoK (both are produced by the same publisher), one has to shell out a lot of cash.

I have looked over Japanese for Everyone and plan to use it to consolidate and review grammar and vocabulary I have already learned. Like the JBP series, it is cheap (indeed, even cheaper since you only need one text). I would not try it as a first time text, however. It is too dense. JBP is more gradual than Japanese for Everyone, which is a plus in my book. There is ample practice and the grammar is always useful. The first volume will not get you very far, it is true, but you will learn some fairly important vocabulary and structures. There are no kanji in the first book, however: just hiragana and a few katakana words. Also, the dictionary form of verbs is not introduced until volume 2.

If you have gone through RtK, you can swallow JBP 1 in a month.

The second volume introduces perhaps 150 kanji, so you will find it frustrating if you are looking for a lot of kanji sentences. Again, however, it introduces important structures (including the dictionary form of verbs). While this volume is a bit more complex and the chapters are denser, there are only 15 chapters and this book, too, can be finished within a month.

There is a third book, of which the format is the same as that of book 2. In addition, there are workbooks. In my opinion, the workbook for volume one is not worth the cost: it is entirely romaji. That is not the case for the workbooks for volumes two and three: in these more vocabulary is introduced and there is plenty of useful practice.

Completing volumes one and two will put you in a position to understand the grammar of pretty much any sentence in Kanji Odyssey or Kanji in Context. And it will definitely help your speaking ability: let's face it, while it may be a herculean feat to complete RtK in a month or a year, one does not learn to speak from that book. I lived in Japan for four years and I found the Japanese for Busy People series very helpful.

Merits of doing a textbook... - captal - 2010-05-15

Jarvik7 Wrote:@yudantaiteki:

I'm in complete agreement, but that's not how the schools think.
My schools had no problem with me speaking Japanese to the students- I had one teacher that got on my case for using Japanese in the classroom in elementary school, everyone else was relieved. In middle school I would use Japanese in class after they didn't understand what I said in English, or if I was just joking around.

Most teachers are so happy they don't have to try and translate in front of their kids and look stupid. My middle school teachers often faced embarrassment when they couldn't understand what I said after repeating it three times. And my midwestern accent is one of the easiest in the US to understand.

Merits of doing a textbook... - kendo99 - 2010-05-15

captal : you mean my deep southern drawl causes people difficulty?

Merits of doing a textbook... - ocircle - 2010-05-15

xquio Wrote:So, I'm taking a two week break after RTK to catch up on real life, and after that I'm planning on starting some hardcore study. But my question is, would doing Minna no Nihongo before Core/KO/sentences be all that beneficial?

I'm essentially starting at square one. As far as I can see, both books can be done in two months at a lesson a day, so it's not like it's a huge time sink. But, would that time be better spent doing something else? I want something to get me on my feet smoothly, and from what I've read it seems like going from Tae Kim straight to Core/KO isn't the smoothest of paths.
I don't think RTK is more useful than a textbook if you are ever planning to go to Japan. From textbooks you learn important phrases, and they are tied together by their theme or difficulty.

But for RTK or KO all you learn is one kanji or kanji compound at a time, which is totally useless if you're trying to ask (speech) for directions, asking store people if they have something you want, or even discussing how much an item costs.

Unless all you ever plan on doing with your Japanese is read manga books and play dating sims, I would work on improving my conversation skills more than memorizing some obscure kanji even Japanese people cannot read, nevermind write.

Merits of doing a textbook... - captal - 2010-05-15

kendo99 Wrote:captal : you mean my deep southern drawl causes people difficulty?
Oh I don't know, I figure it probably is harder to understand than my accent Smile My girlfriend is finally getting used to the Australian accent again- that took a while.