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+--- Thread: Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? (/thread-5418.html)
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - Ryuujin27 - 2010-04-14
I've reached that point after completing Heisig and reviewing using anki that I just can't do it anymore. Having to constantly review kanji cards in anki every single day has not only caused me great frustration, but has caused me to frequently give up on trying to learn any knew Japanese that day (not including watching shows, listening to music, and reading in Japanese), and even quit using anki for my sentences.
Basically, what I'm saying here is I am deleting my Heisig anki deck and never going back to it. However, I still want to have some practice writing kanji and not forgetting all of the ones I don't use frequently. I also don't want to fall back to only being able to read them. If I'm going to hand write some Japanese, I want to use all the kanji I know.
As such, the question is: How should I do this? Anyone have any ideas? I can't believe I'd be the first person to get fed up with reviewing Heisig kanji and give up on it. Right now I'm playing some kanji games on my DS (such as なぞって覚える大人の漢字練習), but is there anything else? I'd prefer something fun, because, for the record, I do NOT find that DS game fun. It is a real chore sometimes and it really starts to anger me with the choice of weird vocabulary. Kind of cool when I can drop a word from it in conversation, but not worth the frustration it brings sometimes.
So... help? Suggestions? Comments? (But please don't try to convince me not to give up on the Heisig deck)
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - Javizy - 2010-04-14
2000 cards isn't much compared to your average vocabulary deck. It really doesn't take long to get it down to 15-20 a day. I stopped reviewing it (out of pure laziness), and it caused me all sorts of problems when learning vocabulary, and of course writing. When I went back to it, the smallest interval I could select for a card I barely remembered was six months, so I started with a fresh deck. I've still got 500 new cards to get through, and I'm really wishing I had just stuck with it, since I'd be doing less than 10/day and know kanji a whole lot better.
If you were having this problem with vocabulary, then cutting back on new cards would be a good option since it's a never ending process, but there's a foreseeable end with Heisig. I think just riding it out for a couple of months would be much more beneficial in the long run, and make the kind of studying you're missing now a lot easier. It might seem like a good idea to quit, but if you experience the sort of frustration I was, you'll regret it at some point.
I know you said don't convince you to keep going, but this is coming from somebody who's "been there" so to speak.
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - wccrawford - 2010-04-14
On the other hand, I gave up on RTK completely and have been learning vocab instead. For me, I think it was the right move. I had many of the frustrations that you're feeling.
If you really want to keep on the kanji, tone it -way- down. Limit yourself to only a very few cards a day, and if you forget some, it doesn't matter!
Did you catch that last bit? Because it's important:
It doesn't matter!
Most of your time should be spent having fun, and only a little should involve pain. If you can't stand the pain, STOP for a while.
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - intermu - 2010-04-14
I just went through the exact same phase actually. At least, the VERY TIRED with SRSin part.
Frustrated with the keywords of RtK since that failed me a lot of times that it actually makes me not open anki for like a week or so. I finally manned the hell up and actually did some manual work with the cards to make it more recognizable to me (I am allergic to manual labor on the computer btw).
I guess right now I'm still in the middle of recovering my will to SRS again, but I guess you don't need to review it everyday. I constantly leave due cards for a few days or so before getting to them again.
Just sharing this tidbit. Not gonna persuade you or anything. Not that I'm an expert or anything either lol. I guess going with sentence decks or something can work.
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - Ryuujin27 - 2010-04-14
I should also say that I don't really do very many vocabulary cards, either. I add them when I see a really cool word or something I want to remember how to express myself. Otherwise, I just read A LOT. Other than these forums and classes, I don't read anything not in Japanese (and I ever read some business principles and readings for my Japanese woman's study class in Japanese). I also only listen to Japanese music, only watch Japanese tv shows, and only play Japanese video games. My vocab comes mostly from a lot of exposure to it, and looking up words I don't know in the dictionary. I rarely ever stop to write something down or put it in a SRS... I just don't think it's really that useful.
The last time I hardcore used a SRS, I stopped doing stuff in Japanese for a few months, preferring most of the stuff I do be in English. I'm not looking forward to that happening again.
Thanks for that story Javizy, but I just can't bring myself to keep up with it. I really, really loathe it. I just spent the last couple of hours deleting not only my heisig deck, but also going through all my vocab cards and deleting down to about 400 now (going to keep on going until I have less than 100, it seems). Then, I'll reset those and try this again.
Now, I know about getting heisig down to only a few a day, but that day seems far away for me. Not only that, but I let me reviews climb to over 1000 due to negligence. When I was doing them, I would only let myself review 25 a day. That was it. However, even that caused me great discomfort, as I really, really hated doing that. So I just gave up. Since then, my interest in doing things in Japanese again has drastically increased, so I don't plan to go back.
I wish there were a way to solidly maintain writing ability, but if there isn't, then oh well. I'd rather be able to get every other aspect of Japanese down then come to a point where I just can't do anything because of having to do my heisig srs and getting fed up.
P.S. - wccrawford, I totally agree.
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - Tobberoth - 2010-04-14
I don't get how people can have such a big problem with this. A few days ago, I went though 178 cards (I had been skipping my reviews for 2 days) in less than 30 minutes. That's no effort at all and I have my RTK deck, Japanese sentences and Japanese vocabulary. It's all about not being a hotshot and adding way more than you can handle, and not letting reviews pile up to the point where you simply can't get them down.
Also, I think that if you feel your kanji reviews are too high when already finished with RtK you either:
1. Push hard to often. Stop doing that, they will come up too often as the algorithm considers them hard and shows them more often.
2. Don't let yourself think too long. If you can't think of the kanji almost immediately, fail it. Sitting there thinking is what takes up all your time and makes it boring. Going though 50 cards shouldn't take a considerable amount of time, and it isn't going to if you force yourself to spend just a few seconds on each card.
Like the others, I'm not going to try to convince you. If you prefer doing things your way, do em that way. I just feel that if you care about it so much that you made a topic about it, you probably deep down want to keep up the SRS because I think you do believe in the concept.
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - Ryuujin27 - 2010-04-14
It's not a problem with how long it takes, or whether or not it's hard. It's simply that it annoys me, and infuriates, probably for no good reason. At least, I can't possibly think of a reason why it would, but especially when I fail a card I just get this feeling like if I continue to review these I will absolutely throw myself or my computer out of a window.
I know this doesn't sound logically, and it probably isn't at all. But that's the feeling I get, whenever I do kanji reviews. Trust me, I was not a hot shot going through RtK, and I never added a ton of cards in one day. I just can't do it. These reviews kill me.
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - nest0r - 2010-04-14
I view failing cards as one of my main goals during review sessions (which I look forward to each day). I get excited to know I can hone my awareness of my mistakes and make sure I'm learning, having these custom-tailored cards and the external grading/scheduling system. When I go through tonnes of cards without a failure, I feel weird, like I must've done something wrong. ;p
I first read about this tip when I was younger and teaching myself something I felt was very hard (and it worked great), so it's not a new idea, but:
"I'll give you an example from one of the two things I know best about teaching --- aikido, the japanese martial art. Aikido involves some quite intricate throws and grappling moves. Often a student is so intent on getting through the move, and on trying hard to get it right, that they become completely stuck, repeatedly doing something that doesn't work, and usually too fast. Even if you say or show explicitly the correct movement, they can't seem to get it. In this situation, one teaching technique I use, inspired by the 'Inner Game' writings of Timothy Gallway, is to tell the student to stop trying to do the move correctly, and instead do it deliberately wrong [emphasis nest0r's]. “Try pushing over this way to the left”, I'll say, “Now try the opposite over to the right. Now try high, or low. Which is easiest?”. By removing the obligation to get the move correct I hope to give permission to the student to just experience the effect they are having on their partner's balance. Once they can tune into this they can figure out for themselves what the right thing to do is, without me having to tell them.
However you do it, if you can get out of the rut of right and wrong you free up a natural capacity for experience-led, curiosity-driven learning. Soon you'll be flying along again, experiencing the learning equivalent of the jogger's high, and all thanks to that chemical messenger dopamine and a brain that's evolved to find things out for itself, and feel good while doing it." - http://schoolofeverything.com/blog/learning-should-be-fun
You can blame the SRS for this, but that's just scapegoating and treating a symptom.
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - chamcham - 2010-04-14
I try to limit my SRS usage to the bare minimum.
I simply review until I've reached a certain number of failed cards (10 cards). So I keep reviewing until I reached 10 failed cards and that's it. Those 10 failed cards are for me to study throughout the day whenever I feel like it. Takes me maybe 10-20 mins. At that point, I'm done with SRS for the day and the rest of the time is intended to reading/listening native material.
In the beginning, it's easy to get 10 failed cards, but as you get better, it'll take longer to fail 10 cards. In the meantime, you're reading/listening to native material and studying up on kanji that appears in your readings/drama/music/etc.
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - Groot - 2010-04-14
I would think extensive reading would be a way to practice Kanji without an SRS. But then, I'm pretty new to all this.
I'm curious how vocabulary decks work. (I'm still in the middle of RTK, so I'm not at that point yet.) Does one aim to make a deck of 15,000 vocabulary words or something? How much can a reasonably diligent person manage?
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - Sebastian - 2010-04-14
Ryuujin27 Wrote:So... help? Suggestions? Comments? (But please don't try to convince me not to give up on the Heisig deck)If just changing your RTK keywords for Japanese words is not an option, and you want to practice not only recognition, but only production, then the first idea that comes to my mind is writing in Japanese by hand. It can be a diary, your to-do lists, thoughts that cross your mind, transcriptions of things you listen to (like, but not only, music, podcasts, anime or doramas), notes for any course you're taking, etc.
P.S. : Can't help but add that I think giving up on your heisig deck isn't worth it.
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - Ryuujin27 - 2010-04-15
Hmm, I love that post nest0r, but you're going to have to take me through it a little bit more directly, I think. Call it the fact that I haven't slept sufficiently in a few weeks, or the fact that it is 3 in the morning, but I can't seem to fully grasp the implication.
I get that you are saying not to give up the SRS, and that it isn't the SRS's fault that I am experiencing this lack of interest in doing things Japanese, and even that I should perhaps change the way I SRS. But I don't get it. With something like the heisig deck, there really is only one way to do it, and it has to be done that way, or it becomes as ineffectual as not doing it at all. However, if you know of another way, please let me know.
Also, I'd like to make it known that I, in fact, DO believe this to be the SRS's fault. Well, not particularly the SRS, just my heisig deck. Since dropping the heisig deck, my productivity in Japanese has increased 10 fold. And this isn't the first time this happened. Each time I gave up on heisig before this (without completing it, though I've completed it now), it was because my productivity in Japanese in general had fell. When I stopped heisig, it regained all its previous vigor. That happened 3 times. So this is hardly an isolated incident.
What is even more strange is it has nothing to do with kanji. I love kanji to death. I believe I was the only person in any of my Japanese classes in school (or even in Japan) that loved kanji. They fascinated me. However, something about having to review my heisig deck just doesn't sit well, and I'm not sure why.
Finally, I like the idea of writing a journal in Japanese using hand writting. Maybe I'll try that - thanks Sebastian. Though I'm not sure that'd be enough to maintain the rarer characters.
*P.S. - The heisig deck is already given up on. It's deleted. It hadn't been used in over a month before this post.
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - Jarvik7 - 2010-04-15
Ryuujin27 Wrote:Basically, what I'm saying here is I am deleting my Heisig anki deck and never going back to it. However, I still want to have some practice writing kanji and not forgetting all of the ones I don't use frequently.Sorry, not possible short of reviewing all the kanji regularly. Remember that even natives forget how to write (and even read) many of the less common kanji (even 常用). If you review regularly your kanji reps should thin out very quickly to only a couple per day. Surely 2 cards can't be THAT soul draining?
I too find anki reviews to be annoying. However, I also know that they are necessary, so I find a way of doing them that doesn't crush my soul. I do them at work. I can usually crank out all of the day's reviews (400+ cards for kanji+vocab) in the first hour I'm there, and then do cards as they expire the rest of the day.
Your productivity may have gone up in other areas since dropping the kanji reviews, but you are losing ground on the kanji. You would be better off working out a way to get the SRSing done (even if it means not doing half etc the reps for that day, increasing intervals, timeboxing, do anki reviews while watching tv, etc) instead of just dropping it.
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - Fuamnach - 2010-04-15
Theoretical solution - I haven't tried this, but...
if you're feeling creative...you could take a number of kanji and every couple of days, or every week or so, and aim to write words containing them into a story, song, poem, comedy sketch, etc, making it as indecent and silly as you like, or if you're feeling up to it, actually attempting to write something decent. if you don't feel shy, you could even publish what you've written somewhere like a blog or lang8. Focus only on the kanji you know you don't came across often (say the rarest 500-1000) but inevitably you'd end up writing regular ones too. And obviously write by hand.
It may take longer than an srs to get through all the kanji this way, but better than doing nothing.
My 2 cents.
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - caivano - 2010-04-15
I personally have kept learning kanji away from my laptop / anki as I spend enough time on it doing vocab / sentence reviews. I practice writing on a DS game and using the kanji books meant for Japanese school kids. Neither are particularly fun but at least I don't kill my laptop...! Other ways I sometimes use are writing a diary or dictating from an audiobook.
I've not doing Heisig tho so I don't know what difference that makes.
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - Ryuujin27 - 2010-04-15
Great idea Fuamnach! I'm definitely going to give that a shot!
Also, Jarvik, I'm slowly becoming aware that retaining the ability to write the characters might be a losing battle without doing heisig reviews. However, I'm starting to think that it's just not worth the trouble for me. I'm not bashing the method or the reviews. If you can do them, great. I can't. I'd rather do anything else in Japanese. Not to mention it's been over a month without even looking at that heisig deck and I'm still showing people up writing kanji just fine.
We'll see how it goes.
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - Tobberoth - 2010-04-15
Jarvik7 Wrote:Man I wish I had a job where they would pay me to do one hour of Anki reps...Ryuujin27 Wrote:Basically, what I'm saying here is I am deleting my Heisig anki deck and never going back to it. However, I still want to have some practice writing kanji and not forgetting all of the ones I don't use frequently.Sorry, not possible short of reviewing all the kanji regularly. Remember that even natives forget how to write (and even read) many of the less common kanji (even 常用). If you review regularly your kanji reps should thin out very quickly to only a couple per day. Surely 2 cards can't be THAT soul draining?
I too find anki reviews to be annoying. However, I also know that they are necessary, so I find a way of doing them that doesn't crush my soul. I do them at work. I can usually crank out all of the day's reviews (400+ cards for kanji+vocab) in the first hour I'm there, and then do cards as they expire the rest of the day.
Your productivity may have gone up in other areas since dropping the kanji reviews, but you are losing ground on the kanji. You would be better off working out a way to get the SRSing done (even if it means not doing half etc the reps for that day, increasing intervals, timeboxing, do anki reviews while watching tv, etc) instead of just dropping it.
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - Fuamnach - 2010-04-15
@Ryuujin27: Glad I was able to help
I too know how it feels to look at a deck and want to throw the comp out the window. I hope things work out for you 
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - Javizy - 2010-04-15
I can't get myself to review using my PC. The reason I stopped Heisig reviews (for something close to a year) was because of that. Since I got my iPod though, I've been able to maintain an average of about 300 reviews per day. Boring SRSin' starts seeming a lot more appealing when you're standing around like a goon for 10 minutes waiting for your girlfriend to try on clothes, or stuck on an hour-long train journey without a newspaper. Then there's those little snippets of time throughout the day that are filled nicely with 10 reviews. If you don't have any qualms about the hygiene, the toilet can become a review goldmine after eating Mexican food.
Basically, if you don't have an Anki-compatible portable device, then get one. It totally changed how I felt about reviewing, and once you've been doing a certain number consistently for a length of time, you don't want to slack off and and ruin your hard work, so it becomes motivation in itself. Something to consider at least.
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - Ryuujin27 - 2010-04-15
Does one's iPod have to be jailbroken to use anki on? That's the major thing for me... I really don't want to jailbreak it. I did that once before and it nearly ruined my iPod (and I definitely did it correctly).
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - Javizy - 2010-04-15
Ryuujin27 Wrote:Does one's iPod have to be jailbroken to use anki on? That's the major thing for me... I really don't want to jailbreak it. I did that once before and it nearly ruined my iPod (and I definitely did it correctly).iAnki is easy to use. You just download the plug-in through the desktop client, and then connect through Safari using your IP address. You need to enable synchronisation in your deck properties first (just check the box and enter a name).
I was using it with no problems for months, but I jailbroke recently for AnkiMini so I could use audio. It's really easy to do an untethered jailbreak with redsn0w, but you'd probably be better off waiting to see what comes out after OS 4.0, since that has some pretty good features itself. The SNES emulator was the deciding factor for me. I think you'll be fine with iAnki if you don't need audio.
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - Ryuujin27 - 2010-04-16
Yeah I don't use audio in my decks. So iAnki should be fine. Unfortunately, I don't have my iPod connected to the wireless at school, so I'd have to wait until I get home to start using it. (You can only connect 2 things to the wireless, and I choose my laptop and my PS3)
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - kanjiwarrior - 2010-04-16
Tobberoth Wrote:That's the only thing I miss about my old job, I used to get all my kanji/sentence reviews done at work on my iphone.Jarvik7 Wrote:Man I wish I had a job where they would pay me to do one hour of Anki reps...Ryuujin27 Wrote:Basically, what I'm saying here is I am deleting my Heisig anki deck and never going back to it. However, I still want to have some practice writing kanji and not forgetting all of the ones I don't use frequently.Sorry, not possible short of reviewing all the kanji regularly. Remember that even natives forget how to write (and even read) many of the less common kanji (even 常用). If you review regularly your kanji reps should thin out very quickly to only a couple per day. Surely 2 cards can't be THAT soul draining?
I too find anki reviews to be annoying. However, I also know that they are necessary, so I find a way of doing them that doesn't crush my soul. I do them at work. I can usually crank out all of the day's reviews (400+ cards for kanji+vocab) in the first hour I'm there, and then do cards as they expire the rest of the day.
Your productivity may have gone up in other areas since dropping the kanji reviews, but you are losing ground on the kanji. You would be better off working out a way to get the SRSing done (even if it means not doing half etc the reps for that day, increasing intervals, timeboxing, do anki reviews while watching tv, etc) instead of just dropping it.
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - Blahah - 2010-04-16
I too have found that having a way of studying on the go has greatly increased my persistence with SRS. It's just so much nicer to be able to do it anywhere, and the toilet does seem to be a particularly productive environment!
Ryuujin27 Wrote:Yeah I don't use audio in my decks. So iAnki should be fine. Unfortunately, I don't have my iPod connected to the wireless at school, so I'd have to wait until I get home to start using it. (You can only connect 2 things to the wireless, and I choose my laptop and my PS3)You can connect your iPod directly to your laptop without using the school network. You need to start an 'ad-hoc' wireless network from your laptop, then you can join it from your iPod's wireless settings. Then you just need to find out your laptop's IP address on the ad-hoc network, put that in the iAnki plugin settings screen, and you are good to go.
If you need specific instructions let me know your OS.
Best way to practice Kanji without an SRS? - Ryuujin27 - 2010-04-16
Hmm, but wouldn't that eliminate the point of having it on the iPod, if I have to be tethered to my computer the whole time?
Not saying I don't appreciate the offer of help, just thinking that it would be pointless to do that haha.