caivano Wrote:

Ryuujin27 Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:(not knowing what 1-dan and 5-dan are is not something you should be proud of).

I'd just like to put in my vote that I think not knowing what these two things are IS something to be proud of. They are useless words that most Japanese can't identify with anyway (unless they remember a bit of classical from high school, which, just so you know, most don't). Not only that, but I've asked a Japanese person before what the proper particle was to use, using the word 助詞, and he looked at me for a second, then realized what I was asking, adding in that he had forgotten that word.

This doesn't really matter because a Japanese person doesn't need to know Japanese grammar words. It's the same with English, most native speakers don't know what the perfect, past-perfect tenses are but if you ask any foreign English learner they will be able to tell you. And if they can't, they are likely to have terrible grammar.

Different learning methods are gonna work for different people but from experience teaching English, nearly every student that says they don't study grammar, has bad grammar.

mentat_kgs Wrote:Yes, I am. Well, I read the explanations, in Japanese, later.

loonytik Wrote:I am not a native English speaker. And I couldn't explain that to somebody else if they asked me(without looking it up). I do have my grammar faults here and there. But I don't think it is that bad hehe, Of course I have studied those grammar points before. But now I just do it(and usually correct I believe)

I can't comment on Japanese verbs yet because I am still at the basics. But I have the feeling it would go the same.

caivano Wrote:...but if you ask any foreign English learner they will be able to tell you. And if they can't, they are likely to have terrible grammar.

Different learning methods are gonna work for different people but from experience teaching English, nearly every student that says they don't study grammar, has bad grammar.

yudantaiteki Wrote:But where do you start if you're not going to read any grammar rules?

We're not talking in this thread about abstract, high-level grammatical concepts. We're talking about conjugating verbs, which is Japanese 101. I am extremely skeptical of anyone who claims to have learned to conjugate verbs without ever looking at any English explanation or verb conjugation table.

yudantaiteki Wrote:But where do you start if you're not going to read any grammar rules?

Offshore Wrote:I have been religiously following Tae Kim's guide, trying to nail the absolute basics of most things, but that's about it.

hereticalrants Wrote:Nicely said, Ryuujin.

Ryuujin27 Wrote:

caivano Wrote:...but if you ask any foreign English learner they will be able to tell you. And if they can't, they are likely to have terrible grammar.

Different learning methods are gonna work for different people but from experience teaching English, nearly every student that says they don't study grammar, has bad grammar.

Really!? I have the exact opposite experience. All the Japanese people I come across that take grammar rules into consideration too much speak really, really bad English. They are the ones who are always asking me different questions about how to say something and why it is that way. My Japanese friends that speak the best English are the ones that just do stuff in English all the time. I've asked a few of them before if they know grammar rules such as the past-participle and other more "complex" subjects and they always tell me they remember reading it somewhere, but they just don't remember what it is.

So, I'm not saying your experiences are wrong, I'm just saying that I have the exact opposite encounters for some reason.

hereticalrants Wrote:This is a　億段 verb, and it has the über begining property due to its dual quasineutral gender, so you give it ____ ending for the triple permuculative tense and that tense is used when you think that some crazy shit is going on.

example: 走てでられらレラレラレアアアアア！！

I used the permuculative tense just yesterday, on the bus. For some reason everybody got all quiet and just stared at me until I got off.

yudantaiteki Wrote:OK, then say what you mean, don't imply or state that grammar rules are totally useless. Statements like "I don´t think I´ve ever conjugated a verb in any language except for spanish" and "a lot of times, in speech particularly, Japanese people will not correctly conjugate a verb anyway" have a very high potential to mislead beginners and make them think that they can just completely skip explanations of any kind.

caivano Wrote:Ah I should have been clearer... when I said English learner I meant people who are pretty low level and still actively learning (should be learning) basic / intermediate grammar. People who have been using English for years aren't going to need to think about grammar as you say, but they probably studied it properly at some point, likely at school / university if they are young.

Ryuujin27 Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:OK, then say what you mean, don't imply or state that grammar rules are totally useless. Statements like "I don´t think I´ve ever conjugated a verb in any language except for spanish" and "a lot of times, in speech particularly, Japanese people will not correctly conjugate a verb anyway" have a very high potential to mislead beginners and make them think that they can just completely skip explanations of any kind.

I believe I've been saying that from the beginning, though. I could be mistaken. Maybe I meant to but didn't clearly state that.

Either way, I won't rescind my previous comment about Japanese speakers conjugating verbs "wrong," as they do it all the time. But then again, since it is their language, one can't really say it's wrong if it's become common practice. I guess we'll call it... against textbook Japanese.

Jarvik7 Wrote:It might be overwhelming when you're still beginning, but it's something you should come back to at a later time if you really want to understand Japanese.

Quote:Even when they conjugate "incorrectly", it still follows an internal grammar

Mcjon01 Wrote:That's because it's supposed to be a long エ sound at the end, not ア. The way you said it is only used by an elusive Transvestite Yakuza group rumored to operate out of Okinawa. It's no wonder you got weird looks.