+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: Remembering the Kanji (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-7.html)
+--- Thread: ～さん！ Always a good thing? (/thread-523.html)
～さん！ Always a good thing? - Christoph - 2007-05-13
OK, this has been bugging me for awhile now, the term "~san", is usually a polite respectful suffix, isn't it?
Now this may just be my personal experience, but "san" can also be used to add distance and even go as far as to rank a person, to be honest, it's only one person who, when using this term seems to annoy me with it...
I work as an ALT at local Junior High School, and whenever the English teacher here uses that suffix, it seems less like he is using it as a polite suffix and more like he is ranking me, "Chris-san, Chris-SAN", do you have a moment?.... grr.
Aside from that does anyone else believe that the "masu" form, along with the fact that it is generally used when you first meet someone to be polite, and when speaking with superiors at work, is also used to "maintain" distance when speaking with someone, even if you have known that person for a good while?
Thanks for reading my rant, yes I feel much better now.
～さん！ Always a good thing? - chamcham - 2007-05-13
Yes, you are right about "san" and "masu".
Think about it this way....
You can only be vulgar and casual with people who are in your inner circle of friends.
If you don't have any close relationship with someone, you keep things formal and polite.
Just because you've been with someone a while, doesn't make you their close friend.
You can sit next to someone for years and not really know much about them. Also, keep in mind that people can do nice things for you just to maintain politeness. It doesn't have to indicate any kind of close relationship.
～さん！ Always a good thing? - Dreamer - 2007-05-14
Is the person that calls you Chris-san japanase or a foreigner?
If its of help I've seen that foreigners tend to memorize what they first herd ... for example if somebody introduced you as Chris-chan there is a high chance of you being called ~chan for the rest of whatever the relationship lasts.. now not all of foreigners do that (I am a foreigner but I do it and is actually a bad habit I am trying to take off) ...so probably if I met you I would call you chris-san (sorry if it bothers)... now the other thing is is that if the person is japanese and even though s/he is talking in english adresses to you as Chris-san , you have to understand that that person's brain is still japanese no matter what language comes out of their honorable mouth... so in relations of work they can't drop the ~san...
Now even thoug people tend to call them selfs with ~san and use the -masu form or even keigo... after works is over they cut the crap and start talking kansai ben... I know lots of persons who do that.. I also know people who are really good friends and even though they are going to karaoke or having a private conversation and giving advice each other lik real buddies they still use the ~masu form (probably the diference between ages? or the fact that one might be the senpai..? don't exactly) but even they are using such verbal form you can still feel that they are real friends.
Sorry for the long post and even though I don't have a straight answer I hope this is useful to you. And don't forget yourself to try to understand their culture one thing with a good meaning for us can be a very bad thing for them and viceversa.
Ganbare ! Chris-san!
～さん！ Always a good thing? - JimmySeal - 2007-05-14
Most of the teachers at my place of work don't even go as far as giving me a -さん but just call me by my first name, no suffix. And one of those same people nad the noif to correct me when I accidentally called him XX-さん instead of XX-先生.
～さん！ Always a good thing? - Bones - 2007-05-15
I agree with Christoph. At my work (a research institute where most of the Japanese people speak a little english at least) people call each other by their first names, but it seems that if you add ~san, you are highlighting the difference in rank between the two speakers.
Unfortunately, I haven't dropped the ~san on my friends names yet. Waiting for the right time!
～さん！ Always a good thing? - dingomick - 2007-05-16
I prefer Mr. Mick from my colleagues, but anything is fine. Daniel/Daniel-sensei/Mick/Mr. Mick/Mick-sensei/Mick-san/etc.
However, I insist on my students calling me Mr. Mick for the benefit of their internationalization. I drill it in on the first day, and subtly correct them later in the year by always referring to myself as Mr. Mick, and always using myself, and Mr. Mick, in sample dialogues. (Unfortunately, I just started this in strength with this year's students).
The Japanese have their own presumptions and misconceptions about how to appropriately address someone in English, the greatest mistake being that they often think calling someone by their first name is always ok. They've been taught that English and Western cultures is casual and this is always ok. However, English and Western cultures are only casual in comparison to Japan. We still have plenty of our own hierarchical language/"keigo", relationships, and situations:
--We rarely refer to doctors/business partners/professors/politicians/etc without an appropriate title.
--I refuse to let my students say, "I'm fine, thank you. And you?" and tell them it's only for first encounters or those considerably higher
--I have a lesson on requests/demand hierarchy from, "Excuse, if it's okay, would you mind please passing the sugar, please?" to "Sugar. Now!"
--etc
The bottom line is that addressing someone with respect is the standard in all cultures unless they inform you, personally, of what they prefer. And the Japanese often feel comfortable with a more polite address even if you tell them different (which implies their respect, a foundational aspect of their culture).
An inappropriate address can also of course be used to insult someone:
1. being too casual with someone higher up, "Hey W. [George Bush]. What's up?"
2. being too polite with an equal/inferior, "Excuse Mrs. Mick, if it's okay, would you mind passing the sugar, please?" (No missus, but ouch!)
Is this second example what you're referring to, Christoph?
～さん！ Always a good thing? - Christoph - 2007-05-16
dingomick Wrote:An inappropriate address can also of course be used to insult someone:Kind of, yes. It seems to me, that in my work environment (中学校), all the teachers, aside from the top 3 teachers, and the brand new (young) teachers, are of an equivalent "rank" if you like, and most of the time speak quite casually with each other, but some do seem to use the polite form (perhaps to distance, perhaps to just be polite, I don't really know), maybe it's just their personal preference.
1. being too casual with someone higher up, "Hey W. [George Bush]. What's up?"
2. being too polite with an equal/inferior, "Excuse Mrs. Mick, if it's okay, would you mind passing the sugar, please?" (No missus, but ouch!)
Is this second example what you're referring to, Christoph?
What the original post was really about was when one particular teacher referred to me as ~さん, and it felt less like a mutual term of respect and more like "I don't truly consider you a teacher".
Now, you probably think I'm just being a big baby about it, but I'll quickly set the recurring scenario up for you... In class there are 3 of us, The main teacher, an assistant teacher, and me (the ALT.. Assistant Language Teacher), whenever the main teacher makes reference to the other two, it is always 誰々先生、and Chris...."さん".
Now perhaps he is using it out of respect, but frankly it's not something I can be comfortable with when used like that.
～さん！ Always a good thing? - Dreamer - 2007-05-16
Is the other assistant in a higher rank than you? Is the other assistant japanese?
If the answer is yes and yes..than he is ranking you (I would feel the same way).
If the answer is yes and no..than it is and obvious ranking situation... I still would feel tha same way.
If the answer is no and yes I think you are being held of 差別...I still would feel the same way or worst.
If the answer is no and no then I would think it is personal and the teacher prefers the other assistant over me because of X reason.
That is what I would think... sorry if it sounds agresive.
(Don't know if I am being of any help (>o<) )
～さん！ Always a good thing? - Mighty_Matt - 2007-05-16
Well I know in my area all the ALTs are know as ~sensei and not ~san. If it's just that one teacher then it might be a personal thing. Perhaps you could try asking the person who was an ALT before to see if they had the same with that teacher. If not then it's really personal, otherwise that teacher obviously just doesn't like ALTs (or gaijin [or both!])
～さん！ Always a good thing? - Ramchip - 2007-05-16
You could try casually asking the assistant about it (or one of the other teachers if you're friendly with them). If he thinks it's weird too I'd expect him to mention it to the head teacher. If he doesn't, well at least he'll give you a more informed opinion on the matter than we can
My 2 cents!