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+--- Thread: Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners (/thread-5110.html)
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - WolfOfCampscapel - 2011-03-06
EratiK Wrote:8. It's a methodological issue, so there is no right or wrong answer, but I did it right after and I prefered it. The important thing being to only tackle new cards after you've cleared your reviews.Is that the consensus? If I get backlogged, or get a ridiculous amount of reviews, I prefer to do it in batches - review a while, then add new cards, then review more. Spices things up and keeps me interested.
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - NoSleepTilFluent - 2011-03-06
I let anki "spread out new cards throughout review" or whatever. So I get a new card every now and then as I review. It keeps them spaced out so I don't feel that I'm just remembering the next card based off the last card which had similar features. But that's just how I like to do. I don't know what everyone else does but it doesn't really matter since this works for me. I also complete my reviews everyday so at the end of the day its all the same.
Note: If I do extra cards, these end up being in order because I already finished my reviews so the above statement is only half true.
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - jesse - 2011-03-06
I finished adding new cards to my Core6000(w/Ko2001 ordering) deck recently. I did 20 new cards a day for a while, and then 100 a day for ~44 days.
I spread new cards out through the reviews, my retention rate has been 91.6% for mature cards, 85.3% for young cards, and 36.8% for first-seen cards.
Worked great for me!
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - aphasiac - 2011-03-07
Nuke - although this guide is a good resource, I'm amazed it recommends all study and absolutely no output/production.
If you followed this guide to the conclusion you'd probably be able to pass JLPT1, but you wouldn't be able to have even a basic conversation or write a simple diary.
Maybe it's been discussed in the latter pages, but output needs to be trained, and I think one should start earlier rather than later.
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - Nukemarine - 2011-03-07
I never got into the later stages, having developed mainly the beginning of this guide. But yes, output is a very important skill to train. What I noticed though is when I began training with subs2srs then my output naturally improved. Partly I think is I'm replicating what I'm hearing, which you can reapply in many situations.
Of course, there's Skype, R-Talk and others for actual one on one output practice in addition to whatever you care to put on youtube for critique.
Always remember though that these reviews have lots of output, it's just controlled output. Naturally, you want to get to spontaneous output, but I wonder if it's necessary to force that early on if the situation doesn't warrant it (job wise or such).
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - aphasiac - 2011-03-07
Nukemarine Wrote:What I noticed though is when I began training with subs2srs then my output naturally improved. Partly I think is I'm replicating what I'm hearing, which you can reapply in many situations.That implies you were already outputting (I guess speaking to your wife?); others won't be.
I now firmly believe that AJATT helps your output become more natural *only if you're already outputting* - it's not going to magically help you start speaking.
Nukemarine Wrote:Naturally, you want to get to spontaneous output, but I wonder if it's necessary to force that early on if the situation doesn't warrant it (job wise or such).Yes, I thin you need to start output asap, so that it gradually grows as your recognition ability grows. Otherwise you get ridiculous situations like ta12121, where he's spent almost 2 years learning 15,000 vocab words and 20,000+ sentences in Anki, yet he can't produce a single Japanese sentence when asked on this forum!
I'm also starting to believe that output strengthens the link of concept > japanese word, and therefore helps you stop translating concept > english word > japanese word. This is definitely the pathway to good speaking and listening comprehension.
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - Tori-kun - 2011-03-07
@Nukemarine: As asked in this topic (http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?pid=129531#pid129531) by me.. what next? I'm rather unsure, I must say. I searched through this forum and got many many suggestions from posts of different users. But it seems to me that core did a quite good job on your way to fluency in Japanese, right, if I'm not mistaken completely. I like the core2k deck and it's fun using it (I can't live without it). The natural consequence of finishing it (mine has 2943 cards approximately. From the biggest corePLUS deck I selected JLPT5-3, extracted and use it now, as it's faster, with audio) would mean starting up with core6k. I had a look into KO2001, which covers more kanji compounds it seems, and recognised that many of those compounds are not included in core2k (the one I have now). Any huge difference between core6k<->KO2001? truando said KO2001 helped him A LOT on his way to fluency, so this is THE argument to use if afterwards for me.
What do you suggest/(know.. what's the difference between core6k and KO2001 in fact??)? Regards.
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - aphasiac - 2011-03-07
Tori -
I started on KO2001, and moved to Core2000 because the former was too hard for a complete beginner. From what I see, Core2000 and Core6000 sentences are only JLPT N5 in their grammar usage, and are quite simple in the way they express things.
KO2001 uses grammar from JLPT N4 and maybe even N3, and it also has many cards which contain multiple sentences. It's a lot more interesting and varied, grammar-wise.
This thread has stats showing kanji/vocab coverage of both methods:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=3689
I'm at the same stage as your (finishing Core2000) and frankly I cant wait to finish. I can't take anymore 彼は。。。です sentences, so I'm going to go straight into native media after this, but continue using Core6000 and KO2001 as an example deck for sentences and vocab.
EDIT: Just remembered; the default ordering of KO2001 is pretty cool, as you end up learning all the readings of each kanji (as it gives you 1-2 example sentences for each one). So far Core2000 it just seems like I'm learning words at complete random - of course I notice some patterns, but could I say I know all the readings of one specific kanji? Probably not.
I'm also wondering how the voice acting compares - but guess that doesn't really matter too much..
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - Tori-kun - 2011-03-07
@aphasiac
Right.. I cannot listen to those "kare ha.. desu" sentences any longer, too. Although my listening skills are not too bad, this is just too easy for me, I guess. On the other hand I dunno whether I should be too selfconfident in that matter. I still have, as stated above, enormous difficulties understanding what's being said, not what's written. Currently I'm having a nice chat, per text message, with a japanese and it works out perfectly fine. We can talk about various topics roughly, not indepth, naturally at my current poor grammar level. (I take Genki 1-2 and Tae Kim's Essential as "N3"-like.)
Currently I'm thinking of slowing down the audio a bit before merging it and putting it onto my smartphone. I listen to the audio every morning and noon, when I drive back home.
How do you learn in anki? Do you listen to the sentenced? I guess I'm a "writer"-learner, I need to scribble down sentences and words more often to master them simultanously to pronouncing them aloud.
As truando already advised me, KO2001 would do a great job on readings and is not that boring and more entertaining it seems. Also there are more pauses in the sentences itself as far as I recognise. Which deck would you use for KO2001 then? How do you learn with sentences? Do you learn them by heart? By my card-model I aim at learning the vocabularies and readings more efficiently and moreover fast. This at least increased my Japanese reading skills
Edit: Seeing the stats for core6k I must say that it covers a LOT. A bit more than KO2001. Perhaps I will go for it then. It covers almost completely N3 and N2, doesn't it. Even if 6435 single words is a hell of work (I mean the core2k words are not included in these 6000 single words, right? lol)
On the other hand, achieving less single words and getting faster through the more entertaining KO2001 could boost my grammar skills and increase my listening skills as the audio of KO2001 has slightly more pauses, it seems..
Mail me for further discussion concerning that topic, or if you like, write on my blog!
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - aphasiac - 2011-03-07
@Tori
For Core2000 I have a separate vocab and sentence deck. Vocab is so quick that I can do 30 cards a day, where as sentences I do 20 new cards. This means that when I encounter a new sentence I already know the kanji reading of the vocab, and I just concentrate on understanding the nuance of the word and meaning of sentence. I don't memories sentences, I just read them and try and make sure I understand them fully before moving on.
For listening I noticed my listening was poor despite making good progress on vocab, so I made a core2000 listening deck, which just has sentence audio front, and I have to type in what I hear (closed delete) for back.
Even sentences that are mature in my sentence deck were really hard to understand at first, but now it's easier. Highly recommend listening cards if you're not already doing them.
finally, there is a free KO2001 on this forum (search for ko2001 picture deck) with pictures and audio. There's also a more accurate google spreadsheet for those who have bought the e-book.
It's funny we seem to be pretty much exactly the same level, so I will definitely keep an eye on your progress and follow your blog.
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - Tori-kun - 2011-03-07
@aphasiac
I assume with "vocab" deck you refer to such a thing like Q: Kanji A: reading+meaning only without any other unnecessary information given. Or am I wrong? What is the concrete difference to a "sentence" deck then?
My deck looks like Q: Kanji+sentence[kanji] A:reading+meaning+sentence-audio <- would you consider this being "sentence" or "vocab"? Anyway.
(would you mind sharing your two core2k decks; in more particular the listening deck? perhaps that could support me more than anything else [is the deck complete and still existant on harddisk
?]. i would like you to comment on mine process, why don't you participate in my blog, huh? it's in english naturally. i think it's good to have a "learning partner", as one can learn from each other better like this and nobody feels incredibly - perhaps even justified - inferior or superior.)Concerning your method: I also do it like you. I read the sentences and try to understand them. The unknown vocabs appearing in those are ignored, as they will be learned somewhen else.
Also you learn only "recall" but no "production". same here. it's still very difficult to use this amount of vocabulary I KNOW, as i can read them out aloud in other texts when they appear, like manga, papers, "le petit prince", i'm currently reading, and understand them rather easily, compared to what my listening skills are right now, hehe..
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - aphasiac - 2011-03-07
Vocab deck:
FRONT: kanji word
BACK: kana, english meaning, audio
Sentence deck:
FRONT: kanji sentence
BACK: kana, english meaning, audio
Listening deck:
FRONT: Audio
BACK: kanji sentence (close delete) kana, english meaning, audio
I just used the smart.fm downloader to make the deck and get the audio. You can easily make listening cards from your deck, just need to generate new cards from your facts (then split off to new deck if like me you like to keep things separate).
I do type out the sentences in the listening deck. This is not production per say, but it does help my spelling! I definitely need to talk and write more though (more difficult now i have to also study Mandarin).
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - Tori-kun - 2011-03-07
I see.. Then I have something in between sentence and vocab deck. Haven't heard of the smart.fm downloader yet, thanks for informing me. i will give it a try after trying the slow down of audio.
lang-8.com is doing a really good job it seems. found a japanese and we are currently in contact, talking about this and that. Although I do not understand his current, crucial, answer: 30%少なくしたぜ. (I asked him how much he understood from what I wrote lol Hopefully it does not say only 30%, which would be absolutely ashaming
)
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - aphasiac - 2011-03-07
The smart.fm downloader plugin downloadable from anki is actually broken and doesn't work. however, someone on this forum fixed it (karatekate?), so search for that thread.
That guys reply seems to say "A little under 30%, yo!". But then maybe im also wrong - cos your 日本語 seems pretty understandable on your blog..
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - Tori-kun - 2011-03-08
@aphasiac
wrong alert. He wanted to say he reduced his screen font size to 30% lol Also he wrote he'd understand 99.99999% lol that guy is really funny *offtopic finished*
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - ta12121 - 2011-03-13
aphasiac Wrote:I know right? Wait, I shouldn't be making fun of myself or should I?Nukemarine Wrote:What I noticed though is when I began training with subs2srs then my output naturally improved. Partly I think is I'm replicating what I'm hearing, which you can reapply in many situations.That implies you were already outputting (I guess speaking to your wife?); others won't be.
I now firmly believe that AJATT helps your output become more natural *only if you're already outputting* - it's not going to magically help you start speaking.
Nukemarine Wrote:Naturally, you want to get to spontaneous output, but I wonder if it's necessary to force that early on if the situation doesn't warrant it (job wise or such).Yes, I thin you need to start output asap, so that it gradually grows as your recognition ability grows. Otherwise you get ridiculous situations like ta12121, where he's spent almost 2 years learning 15,000 vocab words and 20,000+ sentences in Anki, yet he can't produce a single Japanese sentence when asked on this forum!
I'm also starting to believe that output strengthens the link of concept > japanese word, and therefore helps you stop translating concept > english word > japanese word. This is definitely the pathway to good speaking and listening comprehension.
Anyways, I'm working on output. I'm starting to even get a bit more hardcore in my studying. Focusing on output as well. But I think I've made a good foundation to learn more via output as well. All I need to do is keep going and keep learning.
As for my srsing, it's gone down a lot since(i.e. I don't add that much into it anymore/I deleted quite a lot of my sentence cards, I'm around 18,000 now. It used to be 25,000. I deleted a lot of pre-mined sentences, since I didn't like them(felt fake)
When do I expect to have a strong command in the language(speaking,reading,listening). I expect probably around the 3 year mark(i.e. the way I study, I just never stop to begin with).
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - ta12121 - 2011-03-13
aphasiac Wrote:The smart.fm downloader plugin downloadable from anki is actually broken and doesn't work. however, someone on this forum fixed it (karatekate?), so search for that thread.someone uploaded a fixed version now(but once it reaches the end of march, it won't work anymore)
That guys reply seems to say "A little under 30%, yo!". But then maybe im also wrong - cos your 日本語 seems pretty understandable on your blog..
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - Tori-kun - 2011-03-13
Heh? For what is this downloader by the way? I still have the *.rar files containing the sentence/vocab sound files (mp3) for the core deck. What's the difference in more particular??
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - claudia - 2011-03-21
I need some guidance to understand how to use the core 2k deck in Anki.
I just downloaded the deck to anki and put the media on the carpet. It’s all working. I configured it to show 5 new cards daily. But I don’t really understand in what order are they appearing (is it following 2001KO or something like that?). How should I learn the new cards that appear, reading them first in the spreadsheet in google docs.
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - Kuma01 - 2011-03-24
I'm not sure how I'm supposed to use the anki core 2k deck, do I just go through it ajatt style, remembering the key word and trying to comprehend the sentence in its entirety? Also it seems that every card has a another version of it which goes kana-kanji, why is this exactly? Wouldn't kanji-kana be better instead of both? Or are you like supposed to write the sentence down in kanji or something when those cards come up.
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - Tori-kun - 2011-03-25
@Kuma01: Perhaps this sounds quite rude and impolite but - just start. Do it. After a while you will probably see for yourself if it is effective or not. In case it's not, you will stop and get another deck. But just start and stick to it for the time being, right.
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - aphasiac - 2011-03-25
claudia Wrote:I just downloaded the deck to anki and put the media on the carpet. It’s all working. I configured it to show 5 new cards daily. But I don’t really understand in what order are they appearing (is it following 2001KO or something like that?). How should I learn the new cards that appear, reading them first in the spreadsheet in google docs.The default order of core2000 is word frequency (you learn the most frequent words from newpapers). However, the actually sentences use words completely at random. If you find it tough, you might be better using the deck that's sorted by kanji frequency (search this forum for the thread).
To learn new cards, just read them a few times when they come up, and then fail them with then "again" or "soon"
Kuma01 Wrote:I'm not sure how I'm supposed to use the anki core 2k deck, do I just go through it ajatt style, remembering the key word and trying to comprehend the sentence in its entirety? Also it seems that every card has a another version of it which goes kana-kanji, why is this exactly? Wouldn't kanji-kana be better instead of both? Or are you like supposed to write the sentence down in kanji or something when those cards come up.Yes just to comprehend the sentences, but also try and learn the kanji readings. This may be hard at first, but it gets easier fairly quickly.
kana -> kanji cards are designed for writing production, and as such are not so useful for a complete beginner. You can suspend them for now.
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - Tori-kun - 2011-04-04
*push*
As I'm finished by now with adding new cards in core2k (congratulate me.. that was a hell of a lot of work!), I was wondering how to preceed further. I started my first subs2srs deck (nobody knows) and was thinking about continueing straight forward with core6k - logically. But what does the 'KO2001 order' mean? Anyway. I was wondering as well, if the KO2001 deck contains also the reference* words (see the example below for the kanji 路) or just the kanji&words section from KO2001.
What would you recommend me doing now?
*reference page for the kanji 路
道路 どうろ road, street
線路 せんろ railroad track
通路 つうろ pathway, aisle
通路側 つうろがわ aisle side
路地 ろじ alley
路上 ろじょう on the road
路面 ろめん road surface
路面電車 ろめんでんしゃ streetcar, tram
路肩 ろかた edge of a road
十字路 じゅうじろ intersection, crossroads
（旅路） （たびじ） journey
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - LucidFaia - 2011-04-11
aphasiac Wrote:kana -> kanji cards are designed for writing production, and as such are not so useful for a complete beginner. You can suspend them for now.Agreed. I think that drilling both vocabulary and sentences via kanji->furigana and audio->kanji is the way to go. Writing production is slow and tedious, and by far the least essential language skill in today's world. Better to work on reading and listening first, imo.
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - NoSleepTilFluent - 2011-04-23
So I didn't read the first post clearly enough apparently I skipped over the Core 2k - Beginner deck. I guess I got confused because it didn't have a number like Basic Part 1 and Basic Part 2 do. Maybe edit the names in Anki to reflect the overall order of the 2k6k decks. I just ended up spacing out the Beginner deck throughout the next 3 weeks so Anki thinks I did them already and I will...eventually.
Also I'm trying to get Kanji Stats to work with my deck and it just won't work lol. I've got my other decks to work with Kanji Stats after changing some field names and stuff but I must be doing something wrong with these decks.
Edit: Nevermind I got Kanji stats to work >.< I'll get the hang of Anki soon enough. I mean it's only been 3 months...