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+--- Thread: Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners (/thread-5110.html)
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - ryuudou - 2013-02-19
komoss Wrote:I'm not sure I understand how I'm supposed to use the Tae Kim deck.The cloze will usually be something like "[..past..]".
For example, this example (sorry, dont have Japanese support on this computer so I'll have to use romaji):
fujisan ga nobo[...].
The correct answer is noboreta
How would I know that [...] means Potential Past form from that sentence alone?
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - komoss - 2013-02-19
ryuudou Wrote:The cloze will usually be something like "[..past..]".Yeah, but some don't, like the example I posted. I guess I'll have to fix those by editing them.
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - Inny Jan - 2013-02-19
komoss Wrote:I'm not sure I understand how I'm supposed to use the Tae Kim deck.Why not create a card like that:
For example, this example (sorry, dont have Japanese support on this computer so I'll have to use romaji):
fujisan ga nobo[...].
The correct answer is noboreta
How would I know that [...] means Potential Past form from that sentence alone?
Q:
富士山に[...]。
(I) climbed Mount Fuji.
---
A:
富士山に登った。
And another card like this:
Q:
富士山に[...]。
(I)'m climbing Mount Fuji.
---
A:
富士山に登っている。
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - komoss - 2013-02-19
Inny Jan Wrote:Why not create a card like that:Well, I'm using the Tae Kim deck to check my grammar knowledge. It seems none of the Potential form cloze cards tells you which conjugation it's expecting.
Q:
富士山に[...]。
(I) climbed Mount Fuji.
---
A:
富士山に登った。
And another card like this:
Q:
富士山に[...]。
(I)'m climbing Mount Fuji.
---
A:
富士山に登っている。
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - uisukii - 2013-02-19
This is a question for Nukemarine -or anyone in the know with spreadsheets and Anki: I'm creating a spreadsheet between OpenOffice and Google Docs, and was wondering how one goes about formatting the sentence column for close-delete cards.
The deck is essentially formatted the same as the Kore deck Nukemarine has up on Google docs. I've created an Anki deck based on Japanese the Manga Way, but that was all done in a text document, then copy/pasted and tailored to work with Anki, as I went, but a spreadsheet seems faster.
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - uisukii - 2013-02-19
Thanks Hyperborea, I think.
Most of that makes little sense to me, but I'll read it over a few times carefully and see if I can fix up what I've done, or haven't done enough of. 
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - qwertyytrewq - 2013-02-20
supermancampus Wrote:Hearing your progress has been very motivating to me, a beginner. I noticed you said earlier you changed the structure of the Core 6K deck? Is that the Nukemarine optimized version or is this another one you had?
supermancampus Wrote:Trying to develop a workable method, and following in the footsteps of giants is a good place to startYou're the second person I have inspired (unless you're the same person that email me).
Yes, I slightly modified Nukemarine's Core 6000 decks (in regards to what the question and answer sides displays).
supermancampus Wrote:I'm also curious what you did during your initial encoding period. Did you create a cram deck of some kind first, did you lean the word and the readings at the same time?I've never used cram decks before, and I don't think I even know what a cram deck is (a deck for cramming info?). My initial encoding is Heisig 6th Edition and a decent amount of basic vocabulary (found in text books etc) prior to doing Core 6000.
As for words and readings, that's what the email asked me about too so I'll copy and paste my response:
Quote:Hi, I am glad that I was an inspiration for you.
I don't know what your Japanese level is, but first and foremost, if you haven't already done so, you must have studied the Kanji separately via Heisig. The whole point of this exercise is to make the 2000+ kanji familiar to you. Sure, you might know necessarily know the meanings or the readings, but you at least recognize them. You are going from "random squiggly lines" to "This looks familiar" and this is a very important step.
Assuming you are using the same Core deck I used, then you should be looking at the Kanji or combination of Kanji for about 5 seconds, bringing back memories of Heisig, and the Heisig keywords. Then click show answer. The answer should consist of the reading (how to say the Kanji) and the English meaning. The reading and English meaning is equally important and over a period of time, the Heisig keyword will go away. Sometimes you will forget the English meaning by looking at the Kanji, but you will remember the English meaning by remembering the reading (and vice versa). The readings are not as bad as they seem. I have finished Core 6000 and I can confirm that the vast majority of Kanji have 1 or 2 readings and not more than that. Don't worry about whether it is kunyomi or onyomi. Just study the vocabulary as they come to you and eventually, you will get a feel as to which reading is used where. Heisig is where you study Kanji by itself. Core 6000 is where you study Kanji as vocabulary. Learning the readings is a lot more useful in the latter than the former because you get a sense of how everything connects in the language.
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - qwertyytrewq - 2013-02-20
Okay, I just double-checked the shared decks on the Anki 2 website but unfortunately, the only thing that is available is A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar, which I don't really need since it's basic grammar and because it's not set up the way I like it (but that can be changed).
Since I have a specific goal (I want to brute force memorize the grammar entries of A Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar and Advanced), it looks like I'll have to make my own decks.
In the past, I already typed up DoIJG in an excel sheet which has all the info except example sentences (which is too time consuming to type). All I need to do is figure out how to convert the excel sheet into Anki cards.
After I do that, I guess I'll manually type up ADoAJG and convert to Anki.
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - RawToast - 2013-02-22
qwertyytrewq Wrote:Okay, I just double-checked the shared decks on the Anki 2 website but unfortunately, the only thing that is available is A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar, which I don't really need since it's basic grammar and because it's not set up the way I like it (but that can be changed).The name for the deck with all the dictionaries is in Japanese. Try here:
https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/2032035930
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - uisukii - 2013-02-22
qwertyytrewq Wrote:I guess I'll manually type up ADoAJG and convert to Anki.I was just thinking, how feasible would it be to scan the pages then save them in a format you are able to highlight text with (in order to copy+paste) to save you some typing?
Maybe with a clear enough scan you could use some Japanese text recognizing program and copy+paste from that?
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - lauri_ranta - 2013-02-24
RawToast Wrote:The 8547 sentences deck is full of errors though. There's at least 500 English spelling errors, and the furigana is auto-generated.qwertyytrewq Wrote:Okay, I just double-checked the shared decks on the Anki 2 website but unfortunately, the only thing that is available is A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar, which I don't really need since it's basic grammar and because it's not set up the way I like it (but that can be changed).The name for the deck with all the dictionaries is in Japanese. Try here:
https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/2032035930
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - qwertyytrewq - 2013-02-25
uisukii Wrote:You mean like OCR or something? I suppose that might help. Then again, I'm halfway done typing ADoAJG anyway so I might as well finish it.qwertyytrewq Wrote:I guess I'll manually type up ADoAJG and convert to Anki.I was just thinking, how feasible would it be to scan the pages then save them in a format you are able to highlight text with (in order to copy+paste) to save you some typing?
Maybe with a clear enough scan you could use some Japanese text recognizing program and copy+paste from that?
RawToast Wrote:Oh is that the one, the most downloaded one even. It's not for me. It's just a bunch of sentences and English translations and doesn't actually identify the grammar involved. If you're a AJATT-style sentence freak, then it might help (then again, the errors etc).qwertyytrewq Wrote:Okay, I just double-checked the shared decks on the Anki 2 website but unfortunately, the only thing that is available is A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar, which I don't really need since it's basic grammar and because it's not set up the way I like it (but that can be changed).The name for the deck with all the dictionaries is in Japanese. Try here:
https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/2032035930
However, I prefer my idea:
qwertyytrewq Wrote:In the past, I already typed up DoIJG in an excel sheet which has all the info except example sentences (which is too time consuming to type). All I need to do is figure out how to convert the excel sheet into Anki cards.After about an hour of fiddling around with the new Anki 2 and Ankidroid 2, I finally done it. Here are a few examples of my custom made deck:
FRONT SIDE/QUESTION SIDE
あまり
BACK SIDE/ANSWER SIDE
あまり
because of too much ~; because ~ too much; so ~ that ~
[REL. すぎる]
<hr> (horizontal line)
a conjunction which marks a cause that involves excessive action
Pg.3
FRONT SIDE/QUESTION SIDE
逆に
BACK SIDE/ANSWER SIDE
逆に「ぎゃく」
contrary to one's expectation; contrary to one's intention; conversely
[REL. かえって]
<hr> (horizontal line)
an adverb to introduce an event which takes place contrary to one's expectation/intention, or an action or event which is converse to that stated in the preceding sentence or clause
Pg.53
FRONT SIDE/QUESTION SIDE
しかも
BACK SIDE/ANSWER SIDE
しかも
moreover; furthermore; besides; on top of that; what's more; what's worse; more surprisingly; at that; nevertheless; and yet; even so
[REL. おまけに; そのうえ; それでいて; それも; それに; (それ)にもかかわらず]
<hr> (horizontal line)
a conjunction which is used to provide additional important information
Pg.390
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - uisukii - 2013-03-01
Okay, I've uploaded the particle/grammar close-delete based spreadsheet I've been working on for the past week. After reading through your advice, Hyperborea, I came to the conclusion that I really don't have enough understanding or experience to make those sort of changes without screwing up the data.
If anyone is interested, I'd love it if someone can have a look to see if this sort of deck could be useful for others interested in focusing on particles. This is really only the introductory section for beginner level comprehension, but the data, readings, definitions, etc. were all entered manually, so it should be at least not full of automated computer errors (such as kanji readings, etc.).
Already focusing on continuing, introducing other common particles (or maybe not so common?) from ば to ずつ, with examples of most of their different contextual nuances.
This Google Documents Spreadsheet link is:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjELSdQModZFdG9mU2JmZXFDYlFWNzhFYnpFNEpBd2c#gid=0
Oh, forgot to mention this, but I'm looking to import into Anki 2 (upgraded yesterday) with the basic card setup, as per example:
FRONT SIDE/QUESTION SIDE
私＿医者です。
BACK SIDE/ANSWER SIDE
は
I am a doctor.
Introduction to Lesson 1 –は and が particles. Noun(topic=subject)+は
[Indicates the topic of a sentence, conveying the meaning "as for..." ]
Introduced Vocabulary:
私「わたし」 (reference to one self) ・ 医者「いしゃ」 (doctor) ・ です (is, state of being, polite)
Something like the above.
EDIT: I've been through the deck as it is in the linked Google spreadsheet, and as current, there is a ratio of 1:1.52 new words introduced (on average) per card. It isn't i+1, or the like, but the focus is mainly on "grammar" as opposed to "vocab". It shouldn't vary a great deal in the next update.
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - uisukii - 2013-03-02
^I'm being troubled with ambiguity at the moment. Last night I updated the spreadsheet and the "notes" section is now "Close-delete notes", and I was thinking about using this to either place within the close-delete, or simply have a space where the particle/s belong on the front, with the Japanese sentence, and have the note below. Something like:-
Front:
大和＿いう旅館に泊まった。
[In association with ”いう", indicates the name of something.]
Back:
やまと＿いうりょかんにとまった。
[と]
I stayed at an inn called Yamato.
Lesson 14 – further usages of と： Noun+という+noun
Introduced Vocabulary:
大和「やまと」 ・ Arita, place name.
_____
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - uisukii - 2013-03-02
Quote:As for having cloze delete and translations I'm not sure that it's a good idea. Have one focus to your card. My grammar deck from which the spreadsheet was started has two kinds of sentences fill in the blanks (cloze delete) and translated meaning sentences. Keeping on answer makes it easy and quick to study. If you want to do both of these then make two kinds of cards each with only a single answer.I'm sure what you mean. The translation is a merely a guide for understanding meaning, not something which has to be filled in the blank.
The experience I've add with close-deletion cards is Nukemarine's TK grammar deck. I didn't actually type in the answer in the space provided, it was either written out on paper, along with the whole sentence, if I didn't know it, or I knew the correct answer, marked the card according to ease. I think you misunderstand my intentions slightly. It isn't to create a deck where one has to physically type in the answer, it is just that the particular grammar point/particle is not shown and has to be guessed from context and the hint provided.
Like this, I guess is what I'm trying to explain:
http://allnihongo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/ankimcdanswer.jpg
Either way, thanks for the help. I've downloaded a copy of your template. It should prove useful to get used to the functions of those formula for future usage.
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - bambi73 - 2013-03-17
I just started Optimized Core 2k/6k (sorted by Optimized-Voc-Index) and I'm wondering when it starts to be N+1? I'm at 115 and at this point it's quite often N+2 or more.
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - uisukii - 2013-03-17
bambi73 Wrote:I just started Optimized Core 2k/6k (sorted by Optimized-Voc-Index) and I'm wondering when it starts to be N+1? I'm at 115 and at this point it's quite often N+2 or more.N+1 exactly isn't entirely realistic as sentences need a situation to create enough context for the vocab word. After not too long you'll start to notice that aside the word being tested, there should be more or less maybe one unknown extra, but not enough to make it too hard to understand the context. A lot better than the original ordering.
Once you build up a bit of a mental word bank, you'll find less and less unknowns, but starting from pretty much scratch more or less means you're going to come across more than one unknown here or there, unless the sentences are basically exactly the same, though most words do not work unless the context is slightly different, which often means a slightly different phraseology.
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - PrettyInScarlet - 2013-03-17
bambi73 Wrote:I just started Optimized Core 2k/6k (sorted by Optimized-Voc-Index) and I'm wondering when it starts to be N+1? I'm at 115 and at this point it's quite often N+2 or more.Don't worry about it now, eventually it will get better. When I started I was also worried that there are too many unknown words in some sentences but they DO show up later, so you don't have to learn everything at once.
ah, uisukii was quicker to reply
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - bambi73 - 2013-03-17
Thanks both for encouragement.
Of course i understand that N+1 right from the start is impossible. But anyway I was wondering when it gets better, because in these first 115 sentences N+1 ones worked much better for me (maybe because they was shorter and easier
).So follow up question, how to treat these extras? Learn them fully (reading+meaning+grammar) or learn only meaning in actual sentence and leave it for later when they appear as regular world? Just now I'm learning them fully because I'm reading sentence a loud when reviewing so I need to know reading. Skipping it will destroy this approach.
I understand everyone is comfortable using different method, but want to hear other opinions, how others started.
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - uisukii - 2013-03-17
There are certain words which you won't really need context for- such as "dog", "paper", etc. but a lot of the verbs may end up confusing you if you aren't aware of the context they are generally used in, due to their English associated vocabulary keywords being similar. That is to say there is more than one "word", for say, "closing" something and/or "opening" something, depending on whether or not they are transitive or intransitive verbs, etc. Context (that is, the grammatical structure of the sentence) will generally create a situation wherein a certain verb "makes sense" to use, whereas another, although it may be associated with a similar meaning in English, would not "fit right", within the context.
Basically you will end up finding your own means of understanding which is the right time to use said term, and after long enough it will probably become a reflexive thing. Up until then, however, you're probably going to end up trying a few different methods until you find something which is the most suited to how your brain adapts to taking in new information. Even if I were to suggest "Method X", which may work for me, and many others, that does not really say whether or not it's suited to how you learn.
I suggest you write out a short list of different approaches which you may have been contemplating, and give each one a bit of a go and see which one feels the best. Chances are you are probably going to adapt which ever methods to your approach later on, and not the other way around.
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - Aspiring - 2013-03-17
I believe the optimized deck is ordered by vocabulary, not by sentences.
[morphman does a very good job at making sentences i+1. it isn't necessary though]
Read the furigana, then read the english translation if you need to.
Your main focus is the word being tested, while getting a general understanding of the sentence.
Usually, just a brief glance at the translation is enough to understand the unknown words.
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - Nukemarine - 2013-03-17
That's the idea. The n+1 for the decks applies to the vocabulary word only. Everything on the question side (clozed example sentence, English version of word and sentence, photo, self generated warning) is to help you figure out what the vocabulary word should be in Japanese for both pronunciation and writing. Don't worry about not knowing some words or grammar in the example sentence.
Use the vocabulary deck to study the vocabulary, grammar decks to study the grammar, and the subs2srs decks you make to study everything.
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - Aspiring - 2013-03-18
More suggestions on initial learning process
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?pid=182670#pid182670
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - bambi73 - 2013-03-22
Thanks for all replies and suggestions.
I'm following Nukemarine's suggestions on first page of this thread so I'm using Tae Kim's grammar deck and Optimized Core2k vocabulary deck.
Now I'm in process of optimizing my learning workflow. Each day I change some small detail and observe how it affect results. For example I found that with picture on Front side I often tend to remember sentence (based on picture) instead of vocabulary word. When I removed it my success rate dropped significantly, but at least I have feeling that I'm learning words and not images. Etc. etc.
It's slow start, but I hope it'll get better soon
Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners - overture2112 - 2013-03-22
bambi73 Wrote:Of course i understand that N+1 right from the start is impossible.With a collection of ~9k subs2srs sentences and 0 cards studied, I had no problems simulating "learning from scratch" using MorphMan's sorting. Vocab-wise, that is; I doubt you'd pick up grammar from the 1-2 word sentences at the start in any useful way.
Of course, if you're just using Core as a vocab-word-only deck it's not particularly relevant since you won't be looking at the example sentence much in the first place.