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My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - gfb345 - 2010-09-09
After all these years, the old は vs. が conundrum continues to mystify. (I'm surprised that there isn't a permanent thread on this topic.)
In this episode, the tormented protagonist is faced with:
私がご飯を食べている間山田さんはテレビを見ていた。
vs.
私がご飯を食べている間に山田さんが来ました。
The structure of the two sentences is very similar, but in the first one, the primary clause uses は while in the second one it uses が... Sheesh.
I guess that I'd like to have a better understanding on the following:
1. situations in which only one of は and が is the only acceptable choice;
2. situations in which both は and が are possible, though one is more appropriate than the other;
3. situations in which the difference between using は and が is negligible.
Any clues would be much appreciated.
TIA!
ETA: I should have mentioned that the two sentences above come from the entry for "aida (ni) 間 (に)" in "A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar."
My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - nadiatims - 2010-09-09
Basically, just remember the rule:
は declares a topic, and what follows is a comment about that topic.
が defines the proceding word as the one doing the action(verb), being acted on in the case of a passive verb, or being modified by an adjective.
So the first sentence is declaring Yamada as the topic and then commenting about him. Perhaps in response to the question "What is Yamada doing?"
The second sentence is merely stating that "Yamada came". Presumedly from the context it is already understood who Yamada is.
My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - quincy - 2010-09-09
I believe the first one is using は because it is comparing what the speaker and Yamada are doing. I'm guessing this has to do with both verbs being in the same tense.
My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - nadiatims - 2010-09-09
Basically the rules I gave above explain syntactically what は/が are doing. And this simple distinction can manifest itself in meaning in a number of ways and to really understand how they are used you need to see them in context. I'll give a few examples:
At the start of a fairy tale:
昔々、山の上の小さな小屋に鬼が住んでいました。
A long time ago, an ogre lived in a small hut on a mountain.
In this case you wouldn't use は because it would be strange to declare the ogre as the subject, because this is the first mention of the ogre. It would be like writing in English:
A long time ago, the ogre lived in a small hut on a mountain.
Now the ogre has been mentioned the next sentence could use it as the topic:
鬼はお腹がすいて狩りに行こうと思った。
literal translation: the ogre, being hungry thought let's go hunting.
The ogre was hungry and decided to go hunting.
Another example using both は and が:
これは田中が読んだ本です。
literal: this(topic), is the book tanaka read (comment)
You wouldn't use は after 田中 in this sentence because it is 田中 is not the topic of the sentence, but rather a detail in the adjectival clause "田中が読んだ". You simply use が to show that 田中 is the one who read the book. It's linking the verb and verb actor in the subclause.
You could use が after これ and it would still be grammatically correct but carry the nuance of being specific as in:
this one is the book that that Tanaka read.
Perhaps in response to the question "which is the book that Tanaka read?"
which would be どっちが田中が読んだ本ですか
Here we use が because we never declare a question word (who, why, which, what etc) as the topic of a sentence, because that wouldn't make any sense.
My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - Tzadeck - 2010-09-09
Jay Rubin devotes 18-ish pages to the は/が problem is his book "Making Sense of Japanese." If you want a really full clear easy-to-understand description, there's no better place to look.
The book is worth buying for a million reasons beyond the は/が description.
My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - BlackMarsh - 2010-09-10
I second Making Sense of Japanese. All your problems with は and が will fall in place after reading this.
In addition, let me explain those sentences.
1) 私がご飯を食べている間山田さんはテレビを見ていた。
The story being told in this sentence is *about* Yamada. We know this because Yamada is marked by は. The sentence that would follow this one (whatever it is) will probably continue to be about Yamada, unless a new topic/focal point by way of は is introduced. You could even change the words around like this and it would still make sense: 山田さんは私がご飯を食べている間テレビを見ていた (because as a basic rule the は is attached to the final verb in a sentence).
2) 私がご飯を食べている間に山田さんが来ました。
This sentence on its own seems a bit odd to me because there is no obvious focal point/topic marked with は with which to view it from. Without any information we would have to assume the topic is 昨日 or この間 or something like that. But we don't know without the context. Had it said 私*は*ご飯を食べている間に山田さんが来ました then it wouldn't be so vague because in this case it would obviously be about 私. So basically, consider it a good thing that this sentence confuses you, because it ought to without an obvious topic/focal point.
My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - pm215 - 2010-09-10
bucko Wrote:Had it said 私*は*ご飯を食べている間に山田さんが来ました then it wouldn't be so vague because in this case it would obviously be about 私.Your suggested new sentence sounds really weird to me, because it sets up 私 as the topic but then the main clause (山田さんが来ました) is pretty much unrelated to the topic. I think you'd have to construct some really weird context for that to make sense.
gbf345 Wrote:1. situations in which only one of は and が is the only acceptable choice;There are some of these. You probably already know "question words must be が, never は". Related is "if you're answering a question then the bit that corresponds to the question word in the question must be が". The other one I can think of offhand is that you don't get は inside a subordinate clause. This is why it's 私が in "私がご飯を食べている間山田さんはテレビを見ていた。".
ETA: But really I think you're better off trying to find resources like Rubin's book or other 'authoritative' explanations. は/が is such a slippery thing that if you ask about it on a forum mostly populated by other learners of Japanese you're going to get a bunch of short answers from people (me included!) who may or may not have successfully internalised how it works and who may or may not be able to usefully explain what they've internalised. (Witness the huge long flamewar thread we had on the subject ages back ;-)
My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - gfb345 - 2010-09-10
bucko Wrote:I second Making Sense of Japanese. All your problems with は and が will fall in place after reading this.Sadly, I've already done this, and I remain as mystified as ever. But I'll review it and see if anything in those pages sheds light on my original question.
Thanks.
My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - iSoron - 2010-09-10
Here's a little challenge for anyone who thinks they have figured out は/が. Try to replace the question marks ？ with the appropriate particles in the following excerpt. If you are confident enough, explain your answer. I'll post the original text later.
その場所？、すてきな草原でした。大地を埋め尽くす草？、花も、静かに風に揺れています。
一本だけあるの？、真っ直ぐな道でした。白い道？、どこまでもどこまでもどこまでも伸びています。どこへ続いているのかは分かりません。
一台のモトラド？、道を走っていました。荷物をたくさん積んでいます。
運転手である旅人？進む先に何かを見つけて、スピードを落としました。道端で手を上げているの？、小さな子供でした。
モトラド？止まりました。その小さな子供？、
「連れていってください」
そう言いました。モトラド？即座に言います。
「ダメだよ。もう乗るところ？ないから」
旅人？訊ねます。
「どこから来たの？」
子供？答えません。
Source: Kino no Tabi, book 4
My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - BlackMarsh - 2010-09-10
Quote:Your suggested new sentence sounds really weird to me, because it sets up 私 as the topic but then the main clause (山田さんが来ました) is pretty much unrelated to the topic. I think you'd have to construct some really weird context for that to make sense.You're right, it was a very bad example and I contradicted myself later on saying that the sentence ending verb is almost always the topic verb. I was trying (too hard) to make the point that there needs to be a topic for there to be a focal point in the discourse.
My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - Tori-kun - 2010-09-10
I wonder how people can differentiate between those particles when they actually speak or want to write something.. I had a brief look into Kodansha's Particlebook and.. I just wonder, no, bewonder, how forreigners should learn that o0 Isn't that impossible?
My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - iSoron - 2010-09-10
gfb345 Wrote:Sadly, I've already done this, and I remain as mystified as ever.Don't fret, it's a fuzzy topic. Most people [not all] who say it's obvious and give you precise explanations can only do it after you tell them what is the correct answer. That's not real understanding; that's hindsight bias.
My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - BlackMarsh - 2010-09-10
Wow, this is tough. Let's see...
その場所は、すてきな草原でした。大地を埋め尽くす草も、花も、静かに風に揺れています。
一本だけあるのは、真っ直ぐな道でした。白い道は、どこまでもどこまでもどこまでも伸びています。どこへ続いているのかは分かりません。
一台のモトラドが、道を走っていました。荷物をたくさん積んでいます。
運転手である旅人は進む先に何かを見つけて、スピードを落としました。道端で手を上げているのは、小さな子供でした。
モトラドは止まりました。その小さな子供は、
「連れていってください」
そう言いました。モトラドは即座に言います。
「ダメだよ。もう乗るところがないから」
旅人は訊ねます。
「どこから来たのは」
子供は答えません。
Half of these were just what felt right to me. Like for this sentence 道端で手を上げているのは、小さな子供でした it's the first time mentioning the kid so usually you'd use が but for some reason I feel like は is more appropriate. Although writing it the other way as in 小さな子どもが道端で手を上げている you'd have to use が because you're mentioning the kid for the first time. This may be because the context looks like it's already been set before describing the scene.
Edit: is the question mark in the second last sentence supposed to be a は or が? I think it should be か actually.
Edit again: ok, I just copied and pasted the text and lost the red colouring. No wonder I was confused by the second last sentence. The question mark is part of the sentence!
Final edit (I promise): if we're just talking about は and が then it should be 大地を埋め尽くす草は (although も fits here anyway)
My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - BlackMarsh - 2010-09-10
Another problem with looking at individual sentences to try and differentiate the difference between は and が is that they lack context. My advice to the OP is to stop doing stuff like writing out a single sentence, replacing は with が then trying to discern the difference. You're best off reading the theory behind it, then reading full articles or books to try and apply your theoretical understanding to a real situation. The whole thing about は is that it's contextual.
My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - Codexus - 2010-09-10
What mystifies me now is how can a language not have the equivalent of が and は？ They are so obviously grammatically different in the two example sentences that it makes no sense to use the same grammatical construct for both, and yet, it seems that we managed to do just fine without them. Isn't that weird?
Anyway, the first sentence is about giving further information about Yamada-san. What is Yamada-san doing that others (the speaker in that case) are not.
The second sentence is about what interrupted the speaker's meal. "I was eating and somebody came" "Who was it?" "Yamada-san", this really isn't about Yamada-san at all, you could also introduce something totally unexpected "As I was eating my dinner, a bear came!!" and then go on about how you managed to escape
My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - nadiatims - 2010-09-10
その場所は、すてきな草原でした。大地を埋め尽くす草が、花も、静かに風に揺れています。
一本だけあるのは、真っ直ぐな道でした。白い道が、どこまでもどこまでもどこまでも伸びています。どこへ続いているのかは分かりません。
一台のモトラドが、道を走っていました。荷物をたくさん積んでいます。
運転手である旅人は進む先に何かを見つけて、スピードを落としました。道端で手を上げているのは、小さな子供でした。
モトラドは止まりました。その小さな子供は、
「連れていってください」
そう言いました。モトラドは即座に言います。
「ダメだよ。もう乗るところがないから」
旅人は訊ねます。
「どこから来たの？」
子供は答えません。
My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - BlackMarsh - 2010-09-10
nadiatims, why did you choose が for 白い道が? Aren't 一本だけあるの and 白い道 the same thing? Just wondering...
My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - pm215 - 2010-09-10
iSoron Wrote:Here's a little challenge for anyone who thinks they have figured out は/が.Ooh, fun game. I don't claim to have は/が sussed at all, but here's my attempt:
その場所は、すてきな草原でした。大地を埋め尽くす草も、花も、静かに風に揺れています。
一本だけあるのが、真っ直ぐな道でした。白い道は、どこまでもどこまでもどこまでも伸びています。どこへ続いているのかは分かりません。
一台のモトラドが、道を走っていました。荷物をたくさん積んでいます。
運転手である旅人は進む先に何かを見つけて、スピードを落としました。道端で手を上げているのは、小さな子供でした。
モトラドは止まりました。その小さな子供は、
「連れていってください」
そう言いました。モトラドは即座に言います。
「ダメだよ。もう乗るところがないから」
旅人は訊ねます。
「どこから来たの？」
子供は答えません。
...looking at other peoples' answers now I agree that 一本だけあるのは sounds better, though.
My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - gfb345 - 2010-09-10
Here we go! First, my answers:
その場所は、すてきな草原でした。大地を埋め尽くす草が、花も、静かに風に揺れています。
一本だけあるのは、真っ直ぐな道でした。白い道は、どこまでもどこまでもどこまでも伸びています。どこへ続いているのかは分かりません。
一台のモトラドが、道を走っていました。荷物をたくさん積んでいます。
運転手である旅人が進む先に何かを見つけて、スピードを落としました。道端で手を上げているのは、小さな子供でした。
モトラドは止まりました。その小さな子供は、
「連れていってください」
そう言いました。モトラドは即座に言います。
「ダメだよ。もう乗るところがないから」
旅人が訊ねます。
「どこから来たの？」
子供は答えません。
Then, I gave the exercise to a native Japanese speaker. Some of his responses surprised me:
その場所は、すてきな草原でした。大地を埋め尽くす草も、花も、静かに風に揺れています。
一本だけあるのが、真っ直ぐな道でした。白い道は、どこまでもどこまでもどこまでも伸びています。どこへ続いているのかは分かりません。
一台のモトラドが、道を走っていました。荷物をたくさん積んでいます。
運転手である旅人が進む先に何かを見つけて、スピードを落としました。道端で手を上げているのは、小さな子供でした。
モトラドは/が止まりました。その小さな子供が/は、
「連れていってください」
そう言いました。モトラド？即座に言います。
「ダメだよ。もう乗るところがないから」
旅人は/が訊ねます。
「どこから来たの？」
子供は答えません。
He pointed out that he found the Japanese used in this text a bit odd. In fact, he could not figure out one of the blanks, because he couldn't see how a motorcycle (モトラド) could say anything. For several blanks he thought that either は or が would be fine, which I found encouraging (Yay I'm not crazy after all!). I don't know if there is any significance to the ordering in which he wrote both alternatives in such cases. Also, he insisted that one of the blanks should be neither は nor が, but rather も. Actually, I must agree with him on that one. Trick question, iSoron?
I was also encouraged to see that, not counting the も and the blank left unanswered, my answers disagreed with his only once.
A very interesting exercise! Thanks!
My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - BlackMarsh - 2010-09-10
This is a great exercise, and your native Japanese speaking friend's answers are interesting. I treated モトラド and 旅人 as the same person/thing so on first mention of モトラド I used が then for the rest of モトラド・旅人 I used は.
gfb345, I can understand your friend's decision for all of them except this sentence:
一本だけあるのが、真っ直ぐな道でした。In my mind the picture of the scene is already set so there's no need to "introduce" the 一本だけあるの with が. Not that I'm disputing a native speaker, I can't "feel" it like that.
My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - gfb345 - 2010-09-10
bucko Wrote:gfb345, I can understand your friend's decision for all of them except this sentence:Yeah, that's the one I disagree with him on also. And guess what? If my Google research is correct, the particle used in the original passage is indeed は! Oh, well. So much for the native ear... (No wonder non-natives like us find the whole thing unfathomable! 猿も木から落ちる。
一本だけあるのが、真っ直ぐな道でした。In my mind the picture of the scene is already set so there's no need to "introduce" the 一本だけあるの with が. Not that I'm disputing a native speaker, I can't "feel" it like that.
)ETA: I'll let iSoron decide when to post the original passage, but let me just say that my friend's answers (and therefore mine too) differ from it in many places... Again, I find this strangely reassuring. Now I'm really curious to see how other Japanese natives would fill the blanks! I also wonder how representative the passage is of "typical" Japanese. @iSoron, did you choose this passage precisely because it was particularly tricky?
My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - BlackMarsh - 2010-09-10
gfb345, it's not unfathomable. Your friend's answers just show that often there is no right or wrong way. Don't get me wrong, often there is a right/wrong way when it comes to は and が but there are many cases when someone might use either. And considering your answers to that passage and your subsequent post I don't really see why は and が is posing such a problem to you. It seems you've got it down pat but you're just getting mixed up when you see an anomaly which totally destroys your confidence. Honestly, if you've read Jay Rubin's book, understand the theoretical difference, can fill in the blanks like you did in the above exercise, understand that context is important when deciding whether to use は or が, then you've got it as good as it can get in my opinion.
My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - gfb345 - 2010-09-10
@bucko, thanks for the encouraging words. And thanks to iSoron for posting this exercise. It has been both an eye-opener and a big confidence booster.
I think that I will spring this sort of quiz on Japanese natives a lot more often! And now that I've discovered Lang-8, I'm ready to go to town!
My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - nadiatims - 2010-09-10
bear in mind, there is sometimes a bit of literary choice involved in using は/が. Like Bucko, I treated モトラド and 旅人 as the same. If you're introducing a new character at the start of a novel for instance, you might use が, but you could just as easily use は to create a different literary effect. Compare:
"Tom woke up suddenly in the middle of the night." This would use は after Tom. The smart reader will be perfectly happy to read on and find out who Tom is.
"It was the middle of the night. A boy suddenly wakes up. His name is Tom." This would use が after boy. は and が is highly context dependent, just as articles(a/the) are in English. In fact they は／が and a/the seem to often perform the same function of distinguishing between assumed knowledge and new information.
My は/が saga (part LXXIII) - iSoron - 2010-09-11
Here's the original:
その場所は、すてきな草原でした。大地を埋め尽くす草は、花も、静かに風に揺れています。
一本だけあるのは、真っ直ぐな道でした。白い道が、どこまでもどこまでもどこまでも伸びています。どこへ続いているのかは分かりません。
一台のモトラドが、道を走っていました。荷物をたくさん積んでいます。
運転手である旅人が進む先に何かを見つけて、スピードを落としました。道端で手を上げているのは、小さな子供でした。
モトラドが止まりました。その小さな子供は、
「連れていってください」
そう言いました。モトラドが即座に言います。
「ダメだよ。もう乗るところがないから」
旅人が訊ねます。
「どこから来たの？」
子供は答えません。
The point is, most rules are fuzzy, even to native speakers. Speakers often don't realize this themselves. [But not all rules are fuzzy, it seems; everyone's been pretty consistent with 乗るところがない, for example]
The second point is, when testing knowledge, hide the answers. The brain is great at conjuring up fitting explanations, then convincing itself that it knew the answers all along. [this is also a criticism to Antimoon's "pause and think" method]
Next time, don't ask "why is が acceptable here?"; ask instead "which particle is acceptable here and why?". You'll see a completely different [and more lucid] set of answers.
gfb345 Wrote:iSoron, did you choose this passage precisely because it was particularly tricky?I was wondering if it was too easy.