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+--- Thread: Who loves gimmicky learning methods? (/thread-5037.html)
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - nadiatims - 2010-02-23
i really can't be arsed reading this whole thread but...
what are the faked claims of success associated with Heisig's book? All the book ever claims to do is efficiently teach the writing and recognition of 2000 odd characters and it does this very well. Customize his method just a little and it's easy enough to learn a lot of readings at the same time. If you think the keywords are dodgy, then go waste a bunch of time researching your own. Taking the time to go through RTK in a couple of months makes the whole process of japanese learning a million times easier in the long run because a solid foundational knowlegde of kanji is pretty much required for literacy. I've tried more orthodox approaches and it's so much less efficient. The longer you let the task(of learning kanji) take, the more time you give yourself to continually forget what you're learning, perpetuating the forgetting/relearning cycle. In my experience of traditional methods (classes and textbooks) kanji is taught at a snail's pace and kanji structure is generally ignored. Maybe there are some smart teachers or other great textbooks out there but I'm yet to see any deliver results as quick as RTK. I also know many people with higher levels of spoken Japanese than me and most of them have seriously lacking kanji skills such that it seriously holds them back (prevents them from reading books/passing JLPT1 etc). These are all people who have studied japanese longer than I have and have done so via traditional methods (ie university courses for the most part)
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - blackmacros - 2010-02-23
This thread is great.
Oh and @nest0r, I call Godwin's Law
@Ben I thought you had better things to do? Like tending to your antiquated website? I did enjoy your entry on へのへのもへじ though.
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - Ben Bullock - 2010-02-23
mezbup Wrote:lol does anyone else find it funny this guy has no substance and resorts purely to semantic arguments in an attempt to mask the fact that he still sucks at Japanese and doesn't see a way to improve at it?Yeah, hilarious.
mezbup Wrote:On the other hand we have a bunch of gimmick loving hard working individuals that do nothing but 頑張る and it shows. Keep up the good work guys.Yes, you've got mad skillz at kanji.
mezbup Wrote:Seriously Ben... no one likes you.Aw shucks.
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - Ben Bullock - 2010-02-23
blackmacros Wrote:This thread is great.Does that count in this case?
Oh and @nest0r, I call Godwin's Law
blackmacros Wrote:@Ben I thought you had better things to do? Like tending to your antiquated website? I did enjoy your entry on へのへのもへじ though.Chatroulette's been down for about seven hours, so I've had some free time.
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - Ben Bullock - 2010-02-23
JimmySeal Wrote:With such an immature and inane response to an earnest discussionYeah, this was what I call an earnest discussion before that. Nothing trolly about it at all. Then I come along and bring the level down. Oops! Sorry!
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - Ben Bullock - 2010-02-23
liosama Wrote:I won't explain this any further because you'd be too stupid to recognise what character that is.OK then, thanks for being so considerate about my intellectual level.
Quote:I usually never wave my troll flag, but in this thread and in the other thread you have gone past my Troll indicator.I'm sorry to hear that I've gone past your troll indicator. I'll try to be more careful in future.
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - mezbup - 2010-02-23
Ben Bullock Wrote:Yes, you've got mad skillz at kanji.Using "yes" here and then "skillz" near the end of the sentence seems somewhat incongruent. I'd suggest using the more casual "yeah" to start that sentence.
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - Ben Bullock - 2010-02-23
mezbup Wrote:Thanks for the tip.Ben Bullock Wrote:Yes, you've got mad skillz at kanji.Using "yes" here and then "skillz" near the end of the sentence seems somewhat incongruent. I'd suggest using the more casual "yeah" to start that sentence.
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - blackmacros - 2010-02-23
@Ben
nest0r Wrote:Ben, those are the same arguments that Hitler used against the Jews [...] so you're worse than Hitler.Yup. Definitely Godwin's Law.
Way to bring the conversation down nest0r. Jeez. Us serious adults were trying to have a rational conversation you know.
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - HerrPetersen - 2010-02-23
The Heisig method: So good, it drives people who learn with traditional methods insane, when whitnessing its effectiveness.
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - ファブリス - 2010-02-23
Another case of the infamous KANJI ? The pattern is the same each time.. >_<
Admin: Ben Bullock, please only add to this discussion from this point on if you have something positive and constructive to add, otherwise your posts may be moderated. Guidelines for participating in the forums.
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - Squintox - 2010-02-23
JimmySeal Wrote:I think we're not giving Ben as much credit as he deserves. I didn't realize it until I read this post.Wow, this guy (Ben) is getting bullied bad. I will remember to never criticize the RevTK forums (unfairly)
Ben Bullock Wrote:Just a small correction. Here you should say "horse's mouth" with an apostrophe between the e and the s to indicate the possessive. ...With such an immature and inane response to an earnest discussion, there's no alternative but to conclude that Ben is a mere 12 years old. When you consider that his RTK review was written in 2006, that places him at about 8 years of age of the time. He is clearly a child prodigy and I think we should carefully listen to everything he says.
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - bodhisamaya - 2010-02-23
mezbup Wrote:Oh wow this from the horses mouth:Good find Mezbup.
Also I think a good piece of advice is one I found in the book
"Japanese in Action" by Jack Seward, which repeated the advice that he
was given when he learned Japanese during the second world war (before
kanjis had been standardised into the modern forms). The advice was
that in order to learn Kanji, the best way to do it is to write each
character out 100 times. I think that this method is foolproof, if
you have got the stamina
http://books.sljfaq.org/index.cgi?review_id=215
Get the ***** outta here.
Ben,
You just lost all credibility. You obviously spent twice as much time writing the review as you did scanning over the book.
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - yudantaiteki - 2010-02-23
Jarvik7 Wrote:I've met very few non-Japanese with a strong command of written Japanese. The majority of those I've met who do used RTK.Knowing how to handwrite a lot of characters is not necessary for good "written Japanese" given that the majority of Japanese writing today is done on computers.
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - mezbup - 2010-02-23
Don't forget what he said in another recent discussion (http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=5013):
Ben Bullock Wrote:Couple it with the fact he's had a website that's been around for 6 years and you begin to work out that he's just all talk.mezbup Wrote:@ben bullock: you totally missed the point. The whole notion of "knowing kanji" is misguiding in the first place. Vocab is a far better indicator of where you're at.I agree with you entirely.
mezbup Wrote:What's your level of Japanese anyway since you appear so high and mighty?My level is "beginner" but I have actually done some work on counting the numbers of kanji in Japanese documents.
Guess you could call him the Anti-Khatz
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - JimmySeal - 2010-02-23
yudantaiteki Wrote:Knowing how to handwrite a lot of characters is not necessary for good "written Japanese" given that the majority of Japanese writing today is done on computers.I beg to differ. Handwritten Japanese is still rampant, whether it be for post-its, letters, notetaking, filling out forms, teachers writing on blackboards, or dozens of other uses. Heck, it's still the norm for resumes to be handwritten, so that employers can judge prospective employees on the style and quality of their handwriting. Of course some of these are situations where the writer could consult a dictionary or IME, but it would be impractical if they couldn't write most of the characters from memory.
The old story that hardly anyone writes Japanese by hand anymore is a huge myth.
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - mezbup - 2010-02-23
JimmySeal Wrote:I'd agree. I think no matter what language you're talking about the amount of handwriting that gets done is relatively the same.yudantaiteki Wrote:Knowing how to handwrite a lot of characters is not necessary for good "written Japanese" given that the majority of Japanese writing today is done on computers.I beg to differ. Handwritten Japanese is still rampant, whether it be for post-its, letters, notetaking, filling out forms, teachers writing on blackboards, or dozens of other uses. Heck, it's still the norm for resumes to be handwritten, so that employers can judge prospective employees on the style and quality of their handwriting. Of course some of these are situations where the writer could consult a dictionary or IME, but it would be impractical if they couldn't write most of the characters from memory.
The old story that hardly anyone writes Japanese by hand anymore is a huge myth.
The big difference (and reason for concern is) with English it makes no difference because when you type something you still have to spell it so any daily communication done via a typing medium still exercises the same knowledge required to write by hand. Japanese however does not and this is obviously what leads to a decay in written ability which is why you see this come up as an issueと思います (sorry, pure habit)
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - Jarvik7 - 2010-02-23
yudantaiteki Wrote:By "written Japanese" I obviously meant "physically writing Japanese characters", so you are engaging in pointless nitpicking. The fact that writing skill is in decline among natives is irrelevant.Jarvik7 Wrote:I've met very few non-Japanese with a strong command of written Japanese. The majority of those I've met who do used RTK.Knowing how to handwrite a lot of characters is not necessary for good "written Japanese" given that the majority of Japanese writing today is done on computers.
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - Ben Bullock - 2010-02-23
ファブリス Wrote:Another case of the infamous KANJI ? The pattern is the same each time.. >_<Oh, come on, with the absurd trolling I've been on the end of here you're going to ask ME to observe some guidelines? I think this marks the end of my participation in this forum.
Admin: Ben Bullock, please only add to this discussion from this point on if you have something positive and constructive to add, otherwise your posts may be moderated. Guidelines for participating in the forums.
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - Jarvik7 - 2010-02-23
buh bye
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - Grinkers - 2010-02-23
I've had to write more in Japanese the past month than I have in English in the last 5 years I spent in the US. Letters, resumes, etc are all hand written, which I find annoying/ridiculous, but what can you do but go along with it? I find it silly to build up the skill, maintain it, etc just for something that can be easily typed up. Thankfully I want to learn to write by hand well too, as I think it helps my Japanese overall.
As far as Ben Bullock vs koohii, I think we should agree to disagree. It seems pretty obvious that both sides won't be changing their minds anytime soon. Also not all of us have used/use RtK (like myself), so I think it's unfair to say this forum is ONLY about RtK, because there's lots of other great ideas/projects going on here!
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - Sebastian - 2010-02-23
Ben Bullock Wrote:Oh, come on, with the absurd trolling I've been on the end of here you're going to ask ME to observe some guidelines? I think this marks the end of my participation in this forum.That's probably because most of your participation here is trollish in one way or another. Trying to use somewhat "neutral" words (saying something is "dodgy" and "gimmicky" instead of "bullshit" and "sucks" for example) or trying to sound mature even though all you do is looking down on people and their methods and efforts while not giving a single example of what you think are "good" methods (when I asked you to share what you thought was "good" you didn't even paid attention). Add to that lots of short replies instead of a couple of a bit longer ones and it gets annoying. In a few words, you're annoying and provocative but don't seem to have anything positive and constructive to add to the discussion.
Nevertheless, I think that some people are heavily overreacting and being pedant and offensive when it's not necessary nor productive. Please don't play the "I'm cool and all my friends are with me so I can bash the nasty lonely outsider because he sucks" because this community really deserves much more than that.
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - Codexus - 2010-02-23
Why hasn't this topic been closed already? Is there any point to more name calling and gratuitous trolling?
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - Evil_Dragon - 2010-02-23
Please take special note of how our rating has gone down to one star. That's what we get for being congenital whiners I guess.
Who loves gimmicky learning methods? - Jarvik7 - 2010-02-23
Quote:Wrong answers are often posted on the forum.Haha, someone is REALLY bitter about still being a beginner at Japanese after 16 years of study.
Going from a plain overly biased review to outright lying in his review really shows his true colors. It's especially interesting since he previously removed the reviews from the faq saying that "reviews don't belong in a faq anyways".
He may be trying to "punish" us, but really he's only hurting the readers of his faq by giving them disinformation.