+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The Japanese language (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-10.html)
+--- Thread: Confused about sentence...(Noun を し) (/thread-5008.html)
Confused about sentence...(Noun を し) - johnlugh - 2010-02-12
Hi all, came across this in a sanseidoh dictionary definition i think but can't figure out what it means exactly. The definition is for 芸術家：
芸術活動をし，作品を作る人．
What is the purpose of the し? I've only ever come across the usage of し as a particle when listing multiple reasons....
Confused about sentence...(Noun を し) - Smackle - 2010-02-12
It's する in sort of a conjunctive form. It functions like して.
Confused about sentence...(Noun を し) - johnlugh - 2010-02-12
Ok, thanks for clearing that up, thought it'd be a form of する....but didn't see it on Tae Kim or anywhere else.
Is it the kind of thing you come across often? I'm not sure about its particular nuances and why it's used here instead of して.
Confused about sentence...(Noun を し) - Smackle - 2010-02-12
It has a more formal tone to it. Other verbs use 連用形 or "-masu form" for this too.
Confused about sentence...(Noun を し) - kame3 - 2010-02-12
From Denshi Jisho:
為 す to do (literary form of suru)
Confused about sentence...(Noun を し) - pm215 - 2010-02-12
kame3: not sure that's relevant here. This is just (as Smackle) says the usual "formal written style" where you use the -masu stem rather than -te forms. This random book in google books briefly describes some of the other possible features of that sort of style, including である copula and ~ずに instead of ~ないで.
Confused about sentence...(Noun を し) - yudantaiteki - 2010-02-12
Technically it's relevant because the form is, from a grammatical standpoint the 連用形 of the classical form, rather than the "-te form minus -te", but from the standpoint of somebody learning modern Japanese that doesn't matter at all and it's much better just to learn it as "-te form minus -te".
Confused about sentence...(Noun を し) - pm215 - 2010-02-12
yudantaiteki Wrote:it's much better just to learn it as "-te form minus -te".Hang on, I thought that for eg 書く this form was 書き, not 書い. Or am I confused?
Confused about sentence...(Noun を し) - yudantaiteki - 2010-02-12
I meant "-masu form minus -masu", sorry.
Confused about sentence...(Noun を し) - mezbup - 2010-02-12
This appears in the news paper every day. Also if you read a lot of websites you'll see it used aswell. Not just with する but with all kinds of verbs.
Confused about sentence...(Noun を し) - johnlugh - 2010-02-12
awesome, thanks for the helpful replies!
that random google books textbook has some good explanations of it and i guess i'll see this kind of thing with more exposure.
Confused about sentence...(Noun を し) - Jarvik7 - 2010-02-12
pm215 Wrote:Hang on, I thought that for eg 書く this form was 書き, not 書い. Or am I confused?Technically the te form of 書く minus te IS 書き, te form is just masu form +te, with a "slur" (音便).
Confused about sentence...(Noun を し) - Thora - 2010-02-12
yudantaiteki Wrote:Technically [...], but from the standpoint of somebody learning modern Japanese that doesn't matter at all
J7 Wrote:Technically [...]hmm
Confused about sentence...(Noun を し) - Jarvik7 - 2010-02-12
ばれてしまった
Confused about sentence...(Noun を し) - iSoron - 2010-02-13
johnlugh Wrote:Is it the kind of thing you come across often?You see it all the time in literature, not only with する, but with any verb.
Random line from Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu:
俺も前を向き、他の連中も前を向き、岡部教諭はよたよたと壇上に登り、咳払いを一つ。
I don't think it's just a matter of formalism, though, because you can often see authors using both forms in the same paragraph. For example:
教室に入ると涼宮ハルヒはとっくに俺の後ろの席で涼しい顔を窓の外に向けていて、今日は頭に二つドアノブを付けているようなダンゴ頭で、それで俺は、ああ今日は二ヶ所だから水曜日かと認識して椅子に座り、そして何か魔が差してしまったんだろう。
If I had to explain it, I'd say it's because using too many 連用形-て reads something like "and then ... and then ... and then ...", which is a common speech pattern, but not that polished. Very often you can either find a better conjunction to join together the sentences (like そして in the second example) or omit the conjunction altogether if the sentences are not that closely related either temporally or logically (as in the first example; everything happened at the same time, not sequentially).
But, of course, this is just a wild guess, and may be totally wrong.
Confused about sentence...(Noun を し) - mezbup - 2010-02-13
it makes things a hell of a lot nicer to read in terms of flow I think.