Steve Wonder and Language Learning

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Steve Wonder and Language Learning - mc2mc - 2010-02-06

I'm looking for good shared materials for JLPT1, especially vocab, but also grammar exercises. I've used smart.fm, quizlet, flashcards db, etc..., and so far I haven't really found anything I'd write home about.

I'm not looking for simple J>E translation decks with Japanese on one side and an EDICT translation on the other, as what I've learned from experience (oh, and I've got tons... Check out the other thread...) tells me anything that's taken out of context is not worth studying from.

Basically, I'm looking for things like this

[front]彼は私の耳元でその答えを________た。
[middle]He whispered the answer in my ear.
[back]囁く

I am using another site which I would have recommended in the other thread http://www.readthekanji.com/ I've found it good, but not great. I don't know if I can recommend it for everyone as it's not free - $10US for a lifetime subscription, but then again, it just uses sentences mined from EDICT, so some of you may not think it's worth it.

As much as I like it, there's no offline version, so I can't take it with me.

So if anyone knows of good cards sets that can be imported into iPhone apps, please let me know.

Edited by 風. Email me for details.

Steve Wonder and Language Learning - LaLoche - 2010-02-06

mc2mc: Welcome to the RTK forum. I'm sorry I can't help you with your question, but someone will. There's a great depth of knowledge, especially about resources, on this board.

Steve Wonder and Language Learning - Tobberoth - 2010-02-06

Buy books. Seriously, there is something worse than contextless decks you make yourself: ANY deck made by someone else. There are literally billions of JLPT1 prepbooks, I recommend the Kanzen Master books in particular. Those are filled with example sentences you can make into a deck if that's what you want. You can also get the kanzen master reading comprehension books where you can read and get a proper context, then make the cards from that.

Anything is better than taking someone else's deck, where you don't know of the contexts that person got the examples from.

Steve Wonder and Language Learning - mc2mc - 2010-02-06

LaLoche Wrote:mc2mc: Welcome to the RTK forum. I'm sorry I can't help you with your question, but someone will. There's a great depth of knowledge, especially about resources, on this board.

Thanks for having me. Happy to be here.

Tobberoth Wrote:Buy books. Seriously, there is something worse than contextless decks you make yourself: ANY deck made by someone else. There are literally billions of JLPT1 prepbooks, I recommend the Kanzen Master books in particular. Those are filled with example sentences you can make into a deck if that's what you want. You can also get the kanzen master reading comprehension books where you can read and get a proper context, then make the cards from that.

Anything is better than taking someone else's deck, where you don't know of the contexts that person got the examples from.

Have Kanzen Master for JLPT1. However, I found the vocab book (actually for JLPT1/2) to be a bit tough going, as for the exercises they mainly use 3 nearly identical words, and you're supposed to match each word to the correct sentence. (If you've seen the book, you know exactly what I mean; if you haven't it's quite difficult to picture it.) Basically, I wasn't happy with the book as it gave only one example for each word - and one example wasn't enough to teach me the nuance.

So I went through EDICT and made contextually based exercises around these words, and I picked them up much more quickly than by just using simple J\E translation cards.
As much as I like EDICT I know it's far from the perfect resource, but it is quick and dirty. Of course, if I could go through other books and make decks using examples from them; but inputting all those sentences would take ages. Just like you (I hope), I have hobbies other than learning Japanese.

Are they perfect? No, but they've really helped for me, and if anyone else has anything similar, I'd love to at least check them out. Problem is, despite many repeated searches I have nothing to show for them, so I've come to ask the good people at RTK forums for help.

If the other decks don't help me - no harm, no foul. But if by chance someone has a killer set of decks for 一級, I'd love to hear about it.

BTW - if anyone else is looking for decks like the ones I've described, let me know. At the moment I'm using 'Flashcards Deluxe' for iPodTouch/iPhone, and I can easily include the export codes for my decks if anyone is interested. The app is a decent one (again, nothing spectacular) with a simple SRS algorithm, but I like it because it allows 3-sided cards.

Steve Wonder and Language Learning - mc2mc - 2010-02-06

One more thing I forgot to mention - there are a couple of sections of the JLPT1 that I think aren't really suited for SRS but would be ideal for online exercises - eg., the section where you're supposed to find homophones and the section where the words are written in kana and you have to find the two words that would normally share the same Kanji. If you've seen the test, you should know what I mean.

Again, I can't think of a way to adopt this exercises with simple flashcards; but if anyone knows of specific on-line exercises, please share. I'm currently using DS陰山メソッド電脳反復正しい漢字かきとりくん to help me recall the Kanji just from seeing the Kana, but if anyone knows of any other good exercises, let me know.

Steve Wonder and Language Learning - magamo - 2010-02-06

It seems to me that cloze test decks you're looking for lack context. I don't recommend such "dead" sentences to a serious learner. If I were in your shoes, I'd make my own decks by manually putting sentences from native material I think are worth memorizing.

If you don't have enough time, maybe subs2srs would help because it can automate the process. It creates cards from movies, dramas, and whatnot so you can get sentences spoken by native speakers, snapshots/video clips, and subs in Japanese and English on your cards. I haven't done it myself, but it doesn't seem to be very difficult to make cards like what you described. The main subs2srs thread is on the Recent Topics list right there.

As far as I know, any kind of premade deck available on the internet is shallow in that they don't teach you nuances, usages, and other subtleties very well. I think it's the price you have to pay when you use that kind of learning material. Granted that some decks/sources of decks are better than others, you can't get away with it.

If passing JLPT1 is the goal, I believe someone more knowledgeable knows which ones would work better. If it's not important at all, I don't think you should worry about efficiency of your deck too much. At the end of the day, you have to deepen your understanding of each word/expression/grammar point more by a factor of a trillion through exposure to native material if you want to be fluent (whatever that means).

It seems to me that what you're worrying about is pretty much like the monolingual dictionary vs. bilingual dictionary argument. It doesn't matter. You're supposed to learn 1,000,000,000 times deeper knowledge than what you can learn from the first exposure to a word, phrase, expression, sentence, context, explanation and so on. Here's what I wrote in another thread about use of translation:

magamo Wrote:Should we use translation or monolingual dictionaries? It's like arguing which foot you should step forward with first when you run a marathon. It doesn't matter if you jump off your right foot or push off your left foot first. It's just a small first step you'll have forgotten. What you need to do is run 26 miles and 385 yards.

You need to be exposed to an incredibly huge amount of native material. Translations and explanations are really really really insignificant when compared with the rest of the 26 miles and 384 yards you should run to learn a word.

If you have a good systematic learning method to take advantage of translation for the first step, it's good to exploit English. Your second step will be smoother that way. If you're already used to use monolingual dictionaries and stuff, it's good to use them for the exact same reason. Either way, they're just small steps. Different strokes for different folks, and there is no such thing as the best use of an SRS.

Personally I use multiple monolingual dictionaries when I look up a new word. But they're just a second opinion. I don't believe them. I believe what I'm hearing/reading now. I believe what I have been exposed to. Most of the time my understanding is not accurate or simply wrong at first. But I can fix that as I consume native material. This fixing process is my definition of "learning." Reading entries in a dictionary is a tiny, insignificant part of learning I couldn't care less about.

Whether your deck can teach you better than other decks doesn't matter much. If you think certain kind of stuff works better than others, I think that's the stuff you need now. If nothing lives up to your expectation, maybe you're expecting too much from learning materials designed for learners. I don't know how fluent you want to be in Japanese, but if you're anything like me who wants to be really good at the target language, I don't think you don't need to care much about minor things. Of course, if you're not that serious about Japanese, then I think you should be very careful when choosing learning materials. But if you're a serious learner, it's the same kind of nonsense as "Don't learn Japanese from manga!"

Looking for better study materials tailored to specific students' needs are all well and good, but there doesn't seem to be a great deck or that kind of stuff that makes a huge difference. If anything, I'd like teachers and researchers to come up with various materials based on innovative and/or tried-and-trusted ideas.

By the way, you might think you can't have life if you go hardcore, but I don't think so. It's just you need to be serious. It's inevitable that jobs and other responsibilities get in the way. But if you don't prioritize language learning over your other hobbies etc., it's not surprising your progress is slower than you want it to be.

Steve Wonder and Language Learning - Transparent_Aluminium - 2010-02-06

Kanji in Context might be right for you.

http://bookclub.japantimes.co.jp/act/en/Detail.do?id=0754

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=3317

For grammar, buy Kanzen Master or look at http://jgram.org/

Steve Wonder and Language Learning - mc2mc - 2010-02-06

Hey T_A,

Thanks for the imput. If it's bound, I've probably seen it already, as I'm regularly in Japanese bookshops and make a habit of checking out new material. KIC is alright, as is most material from Series3. However, I prefer eletronic media, as you can get immediate feedback on your answers, thus helping prevent fossilized mistakes.

I have checked JGram and I use it often, but there's a lot of blind leading the blind there. Great idea, but I've seen a lot of example sentences matched to the wrong entries, as well as a lot of debate among posters there as to whether sentence X is really an example of grammar point X. I love the idea of Jgram, but unless there's more editorial control by a knowledgeable authority, JGram will be no more reliable than other advice you'll find online.

I can't stress how I try to find the most efficient method of studying. I really see no need in trying to get my level to the near-native level. I just want enough Japanese to be able to do to J-E translation so I can support my family. Personally, I have better things to do than study Japanese, so if there are people who are able to help me streamline the process, I would really appreciate it if you spoke up.

Steve Wonder and Language Learning - Transparent_Aluminium - 2010-02-06

Well, Kanji in context has been typed by the kind souls inhabiting the other thread, so you can input it in an SRS. It's a great book IMO, better than just taking random sentences from edict. The sentences have no English translation however.

For grammar, I don't see anything better than the KM books and also the dictionary of Intermediate Japanese grammar (which has been also typed up I believe). There's also this book: http://dwarfurl.com/681cb (どんな時どう使う日本語表現文型 500).

m2mc Wrote:I just want enough Japanese to be able to do to J-E translation so I can support my family

You want to become a translator? I'm not sure this is a good idea. You would need to get very good at Japanese, which will take a lot of time. You'd also probably need to study at a translation school, which will cost a lot of money. It's not a short term solution for sure.

Steve Wonder and Language Learning - magamo - 2010-02-06

Oh, I'm sorry. I was under the impression that you said you were a serious learner. But probably it's just my imagination.

So, I want to ask a question for you, mc2mc. Sorry for being off topic, but is it really that easy to be a professional translator? All translators/interpreters I know in person have native/near-native fluency or are at least trying to be as good as near-native speakers. Most of them have other jobs because it's not a lucrative job. I've never met a professional translator who would say they have a better thing to do than hone their translation skills. I guess things can vary greatly depending on the language pair though.

Steve Wonder and Language Learning - yukamina - 2010-02-06

I don't know how useful it might be, but the tanuki anki deck has about 7000 sentences with monolingual definitions. It's not aimed at JLPT1, but it is a deck that teaches words and kanji with sentence examples. Some draw backs are that 1)it's kanji based learning 2)it starts from the basics 3)it often leaves words in kana or partially in kana. So if you do use it, prepare to do a lot of editing. I think the sentence structure remains simple as well, so it's mostly just for learning vocab and kanji readings.

Steve Wonder and Language Learning - mc2mc - 2010-02-06

Transparent_Aluminium Wrote:Well, Kanji in context has been typed by the kind souls inhabiting the other thread, so you can input it in an SRS. It's a great book IMO, better than just taking random sentences from edict. The sentences have no English translation however.

Perfect. That thread is just what I'm looking for. I was just looking in the wrong places. Thanks a million.

Transparent_Aluminium Wrote:You want to become a translator? I'm not sure this is a good idea. You would need to get very good at Japanese, which will take a lot of time. You'd also probably need to study at a translation school, which will cost a lot of money. It's not a short term solution for sure.

You have to keep in mind that the vast majority of translation jobs do not involve translating Japanese literature and the like. There's a very small demand for that type of work and those jobs are taken by heavyweights like Jay Rubin, et al.

Instead, there's a huge market for specialist translation. I know I guy whose Japanese is only marginally better than mine, and he pulls in 6-7 million yen/year. But he has experience in specialist fields and knows the right people. I also know some people who would probably offer me some translation work, but I have to build up my portfolio. One thing at a time.

If you check out a translators' database online, you'll see there are heaps of professional J-E translators who are working with nothing more than a 二級. There really aren't that many translation schools around (especially schools that deal with J-E), so most clients focus less on language credentials and more on experience. Again, it's who you know; not what you know.

To Yukamina: thanks again for the link. I like Anki, but I've had problems exporting to my iPod. I'll check out the tanuki deck. Cool name.

To Magamo - Yes, I'm not a serious learner in your eyes. Yes, your English is light years better than my Japanese. Aren't really that bothered.

You and I don't know the same translators. The ones I know make a good salary and aren't monomaniacal about language learning. They seem to do a pretty good job balancing life and work, and don't feel the need to slag off people who aren't as 'serious' as they are. If I could do half as well as they do I'd be happy.

So do me a favor - get a wife, some kids, a full-time job, and then try to balance that with language study. If you can do that, I'll be all ears for your advice.

Steve Wonder and Language Learning - Transparent_Aluminium - 2010-02-06

mc2mc Wrote:So do me a favor - get a wife, some kids, a full-time job, and then try to balance that with language study. If you can do that, I'll be all ears for your advice.

I'm sure you can argue without the personal insults.

Steve Wonder and Language Learning - Floatingweed5 - 2010-02-06

mc2mc Wrote:do me a favor - get a wife, some kids, a full-time job, and then try to balance that with language study. If you can do that, I'll be all ears for your advice.

wow... just wow...

Steve Wonder and Language Learning - mc2mc - 2010-02-06

I'd rather keep this a serious thread; but frankly I don't need someone telling me I'm not serious. I've got a lot on my plate, so unless one is in a position to appreciate how difficult it is to juggle everything, they really shouldn't cast underhand remarks about another's commitment - especially when such remarks are anything but constructive.

Steve Wonder and Language Learning - Jarvik7 - 2010-02-06

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder mc2mc. I suggest you remove it before you ask people to spend their time helping you.

Translation is not an easy job if you want to be any good at it. Being bilingual is a minimum requirement. Just knowing two languages doesn't mean you can be a professional translator than having two legs means you can be a professional soccer player. You also require translation skill, knowledge of the field the document is in, the ability to write good English in the style of the relevant field, and the ability to interact with people without blowing a gasket.

I know that you are lacking at least one of those qualifications.

Signed,
a translator

Steve Wonder and Language Learning - Amset - 2010-02-06

mc2mc Wrote:I'd rather keep this a serious thread; but frankly I don't need someone telling me I'm not serious. I've got a lot on my plate, so unless one is in a position to appreciate how difficult it is to juggle everything, they really shouldn't cast underhand remarks about another's commitment - especially when such remarks are anything but constructive.

People on this forum probably think studying Japanese is a valuable thing to do, so saying things like

Quote:Personally, I have better things to do than study Japanese

wouldn't encourage helpful responses.

Steve Wonder and Language Learning - mc2mc - 2010-02-06

Jarvik7 Wrote:You seem to have a chip on your shoulder mc2mc. I suggest you remove it before you ask people to spend their time helping you.

Translation is not an easy job if you want to be any good at it. Being bilingual is a minimum requirement. You also require translation skill, knowledge of the field the document is in, the ability to write good English in the style of the relevant field, and the ability to interact with people without blowing a gasket.

I know that you are lacking at least one of those qualifications.

Signed,
a translator

How about the ability to judge complete strangers? Please, you don't know me. Some people have been charitable, and to them I'm grateful. Some people have a surplus of time and like to waste mine.

Again, if you've got nothing constructive to say - say nothing.

Steve Wonder and Language Learning - mc2mc - 2010-02-06

Amset Wrote:
mc2mc Wrote:I'd rather keep this a serious thread; but frankly I don't need someone telling me I'm not serious. I've got a lot on my plate, so unless one is in a position to appreciate how difficult it is to juggle everything, they really shouldn't cast underhand remarks about another's commitment - especially when such remarks are anything but constructive.
People on this forum probably think studying Japanese is a valuable thing to do, so saying things like

Quote:Personally, I have better things to do than study Japanese
wouldn't encourage helpful responses.

True - this is a bit out of context. I also enjoy studying Japanese - however, doing nothing * but * study Japanese does not appeal to me. I think it's important to strike a balance, and I can't imagine many people would disagree.

Steve Wonder and Language Learning - Jarvik7 - 2010-02-06

Where am I judging you? You are obviously flying off the handle at the slightest provocation. Your posts speak for themselves.

I did give you useful advice several times, it's a shame that you can't see it in your blind rage.

Now, for some reason, I will respond with helpful advice to your OP. What you want doesn't exist for a number of reasons.
1) Most people now use Anki. Anki doesn't support n-sided cards like you want
2) You want production cards. Most people don't do production cards since they are much more time consuming than recognition cards and they do not actually aid with real-life production. They are also very difficult to create for higher level students because of the high number of synonyms even for the simplest concept.
3) EDICT does not have sample sentences. You are probably confusing it with the Tanaka corpus. The Tanaka corpus is full of errors and unnatural language and should be ignored.
4) Learning from a single piece of context like in your example is not much better than just having a single English word. You are only studying how to use the word in a single sentence, not how to use the word in general. You can improve this by adding multiple cards for each word, each with a different context, but that again drastically increases time spent making cards and time spent reviewing each card.
5) Most people develop their own system by the time they are studying for JLPT1. This usually involves lots of native material, some 問題集, and very little in the way of pre-made study material.

I instead suggest that you adapt what IS out there into a study system that works instead of hoping for a holy grail. If you are actually interested in Japanese instead of merely seeing it as a potential income source (I am not making an assumption here, calm down) then consuming level appropriate material for exposure (in addition to SRS for retention) should not pose a significant burden.

You're not the only one with a life. You don't need to do all-Japanese-all-the time (I sure don't). Between my day job, my freelancing, my private tutoring, cooking for myself, and keeping my girlfriend entertained I'm not free before 10pm most days.

Steve Wonder and Language Learning - magamo - 2010-02-06

Sorry about that, mc2mc. It's just it didn't make much sense to me that a person who is serious about learning Japanese would say he has better things to do than study Japanese. But obviously I shouldn't have said that. I admit that your view of translators also affected the tone; I respect said friends working as translators. But I shouldn't have taken it personally.

Well, but, you know, two wrongs don't make a right. So let's..., oh, wait.

mc2mc Wrote:How about the ability to judge complete strangers?

How do you know if a complete stranger you run into on the internet is a single, unemployed guy who doesn't have kids then? Could you be nice to others before the magical spell I used in the other thread wears off?

Steve Wonder and Language Learning - mc2mc - 2010-02-06

This is tiresome. Either you can help me with a request or you can't.

You probably have an active life. Wonderful. Off topic.

So please people : no links to shared links? No problem - go somewhere else and leave me in peace. You don't like these shared exercises? To each his own. I would like to check some out - so if you can't help me, let me be.

Steve Wonder and Language Learning - meolox - 2010-02-06

mc2mc is my favourite new member, everything he says creates drama, it's fun to watch.

Steve Wonder and Language Learning - Jarvik7 - 2010-02-06

I answered your question. Be mature and read it.
I suggest YOU go somewhere else if you're not finding what you want here, instead of telling the regulars to piss off.

You do realize why no one has told you where to get what you want? Because it doesn't exist. I've told you that it doesn't exist, why it doesn't, and suggested what you should do based on my experience going where you want to go. Do you think we're being actively malicious and hiding it from you? I'm a translator and I'm done with JLPT1, I also have training in linguistics, classical Japanese, and have experience teaching both English and Japanese. Perhaps you shouldn't discard what I say so readily since you seem to want to be where I am.

@meolox: He's not as fun as the esperanto guy, but I love how he waves his e-penis around and then acts like other people are showing off when they say that they he isn't the the only ones with such credentials.

Steve Wonder and Language Learning - ruiner - 2010-02-06

/entitlement