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Politically Correct: Word usage - shirokuro - 2010-02-06
bodhisamaya Wrote:Should I be offended by being called Heterosexual?Well, you don't really hear people saying, "Oh, you know Fred? He's a heterosexual." It's the same thing with "a homosexual" and "a gay." I think that a lot of people wouldn't really appreciate being described solely in terms of their sexual orientation.
Actually, I want a new label. I only date bisexual women.
What would be the Latin term for that?
Politically Correct: Word usage - bodhisamaya - 2010-02-06
Well,
Actually I have kind of felt that a little. I used to go to gay clubs in Las Vegas with my lesbian wife on weekends. When some people found out I was straight, they reacted angrily that I was even there.
Politically Correct: Word usage - shirokuro - 2010-02-06
bodhisamaya Wrote:Well,I'm really sorry about that. That's just as disgusting as homophobia. People should never be singled out because of their sexual orientation, whether it's straight, gay, bi, or whatever else.
Actually I have kind of felt that a little. I used to go to gay clubs in Las Vegas with my lesbian wife on weekends. When some people found out I was straight, they reacted angrily that I was even there.
I think that everyone is human first. We're all essentially the same. We're all people. I am a person before I'm gay or anything else. One of the main reasons that I think this discussion is important in the first place is that I feel that this use of "gay" reinforces an "us vs. them" mentality and treating queer people as being different from straight people.
Politically Correct: Word usage - bodhisamaya - 2010-02-06
I know this is a serious subject for many who have had negative experiences but I think you are preaching to the choir here. No one that I have read over the years (that is still around) has used racist or homophobic slurs in an angry way. If they do, well, people will use what ever they think will push your buttons. I got my ass kicked every day at school when young because I was poor, skinny, pimply and kind of dumb. I still get jabs for being dumb
So I understand. We all have something.
*EDIT... Darn spell check!
Politically Correct: Word usage - iAurora - 2010-02-06
IceCream Wrote:we were talking about picking people up for racism when they use a racist word, as opposed to picking someone up for saying "youtube's gay". Racist words aren't by definition more direct, it just happens that they don't often take other meanings except for the racist one at all. So, if you're picking someone up for using a racist term, it's going to have been used in the racist sense.Referring to something as 'gay' to show your hate for it does look quite homophobic in my eyes. And the person using it sounds like a homophobe to me, regardless of what he says he is. It's actions that speak, not one's words about himself. We are all nice in the mirror.
Take 'Afro-American', start using it as a replacement for 'sh!t' and see how many people will see you as non-racist based on your claim that you are not.
'Afro-American' is just as close to the abstract meaning of 'sh!t' as 'gay' was for 'bad' before you decided it's ok to use it this way.
IceCream Wrote:As far as i know, "gay" meaning homosexual doesn't mean "bad". It's a perfectly neutral term. If it did get to mean "bad", then definately gay people should consider using another term.You were claiming that active usage of the word 'gay' in that other meaning will take bad connotations from the word 'gay'. You sell it for an act of good will that in the end will help shiro and people like him despite hurting him now. I ask you to look at it attentively and see what connotations are being taken from where. If you do so, you'll notice that time will save the word 'gay' as in 'bad' from connotations with homosexuals but it will bring only problems to homosexual people themselves. 'Gay' as in homosexual will mean exactly the same that it does now. The difference will be just this new annoying neighbor of a word that will cause confusion and extra hateful feelings towards people that are already hated enough.
It means that by promoting the usage of the word you are doing absolutely nothing good for this minority group. In fact you are harming them to some extent. Now you have you right to do so. You just shouldn't expect people be thankful or understanding back.
IceCream Wrote:I'm saying that if "gay" has been used with a homophobic connotation, it's going to have a strong homophobic connotation. Not much to debate there, really? If society's views have changed to the extent that many nonhomophobic people use the term "gay" in an abstract sense, the connotations will disappear.The word 'gay' is being used with a homophobic connotation on daily basis pretty much everywhere, including where you come from. You just choose to ignore it and act as if it didn't exist because you personally don't hear it often. But for people that actually have to deal with it all the time, these connotations aren't going anywhere for a long while. As the main objects of hate, they will be the last to see this kind of changes, so it can be expected that they keep seeing these connotations and take offense. You don't seem to care. And when those connotations are finally gone, gay people will be back to somewhere slightly worse than where they were before it started. They personally won't win anything from this, as I mentioned above.
IceCream Wrote:Again, this is an unfair representation of what i said. I said, very strongly, that changing any term is pointless unless something is done to change opinions, and that changing opinions has to be the central thing. Once opinions have changed, it's sometimes just easier to change the way something is reffered to.Well, what you've been doing so far in this thread won't contribute to opinions changing for better, I'm afraid. So far pretty much everything you said was about how gay people should be more patient, tolerant, understanding, compromising etc and nothing about society starting to act even a little bit less hateful. You yourself haven't shown the will for even smallest of compromises, even when you don't really have anything to lose in this situation.
Politically Correct: Word usage - shirokuro - 2010-02-06
@bodhisamaya: I'm not preaching to the choir, because there are still people who are defending this use of "gay."
Politically Correct: Word usage - bodhisamaya - 2010-02-06
shirokuro Wrote:@bodhisamaya: I'm not preaching to the choir, because there are still people who are defending this use of "gay."I guess we just don't see a strong negative reference to it. It has a playful negative meaning but not a hateful one any more. I would equate it to country folk being called a hick. It's not 20 years ago. In America this week, military generals were calling for the repeal of "Don't ask, don't tell". Every election more states are offering marriage rights. The racists and homophobes are mostly dieing off of old age while younger more liberal-minded people are reaching voting age.
Politically Correct: Word usage - shirokuro - 2010-02-06
@IceCream
This use of "gay" does serve to further marginalize queer people. It's not abstract. It's actually the same as "nigger." It's based on contempt. It has homophobic origins that are still widely understood. It keeps queer people at the bottom of the pecking order. This use makes "gay" the opposite of "cool," which promotes heterosexist thinking.
Politically Correct: Word usage - yudantaiteki - 2010-02-06
IceCream Wrote:when "gay" as a term is generally thought to be neutral.The whole point is that you're wrong when you say this. "gay" is not "generally" thought to be neutral (when used to mean "bad"). Internet message boards are the only place I've ever seen anyone try to defend the term. The idea that it's "totally unrelated" to homosexuality is wishful thinking by people who incomprehensibly want to cling to an offensive term and claim it's not offensive. I've never understood it.
Calling youtube gay isn't something that even has metaphorical relevence to homosexuality.
Politically Correct: Word usage - shirokuro - 2010-02-06
IceCream Wrote:"gay" in the abstract sense used to refer to youtube has literally no connection with homosexuality.That's the thing: it's not abstract. The association, which is understood clear as crystal by all native speakers, is with homosexuality.
Politically Correct: Word usage - Jarvik7 - 2010-02-06
IceCream Wrote:One time I got really drunk and made out with Youtube. It has been kind of awkward ever since so I've been using niconico now.shirokuro Wrote:oh i seeeee. youtube is actually a homosexual person.IceCream Wrote:"gay" in the abstract sense used to refer to youtube has literally no connection with homosexuality.That's the thing: it's not abstract.
Politically Correct: Word usage - ruiner - 2010-02-06
bodhisamaya Wrote:Except that it also has strong negative connotations and we still don't have equal rights or even widespread acceptance of homosexuality, and this shows in every level of culture, including the part where using words like 'gay' and 'fag' is considered acceptable as a general insult. We have a long way to go, and part of addressing this change is asking people to look at the language they're using and how it affects others. If you've done so and feel it's okay to say 'that's x minority group' to mean 'that's bad' or 'you x minority slur' to mean 'you're a bad person', that's up to you, no one is telling you you must stop, but don't expect us to be happy about it when we find it offensive and feel it perpetuates marginalization by copying and spreading the negative resonance that comes from bigotry and saturates our culture enough as it is.shirokuro Wrote:@bodhisamaya: I'm not preaching to the choir, because there are still people who are defending this use of "gay."I guess we just don't see a strong negative reference to it. It has a playful negative meaning but not a hateful one any more. I would equate it to country folk being called a hick. It's not 20 years ago. In America this week, military generals were calling for the repeal of "Don't ask, don't tell". Every election more states are offering marriage rights. The racists and homophobes are mostly dieing off of old age while younger more liberal-minded people are reaching voting age.
Politically Correct: Word usage - shirokuro - 2010-02-06
IceCream Wrote:Yes. It's personification/anthropomorphism. YouTube's a homosexual, and therefore it's defective. That's why it didn't work. It would have if it was straight, though.shirokuro Wrote:oh i seeeee. youtube is actually a homosexual person.IceCream Wrote:"gay" in the abstract sense used to refer to youtube has literally no connection with homosexuality.That's the thing: it's not abstract.
Politically Correct: Word usage - bodhisamaya - 2010-02-06
Jarvik7 Wrote:One time I got really drunk and made out with Youtube. It has been kind of awkward ever since so I've been using niconico now.They talk
Politically Correct: Word usage - shirokuro - 2010-02-06
Even if you're going to say it's not personification/anthropomorphism, the same concept is still at work: X is "gay," meaning homosexual, and therefore whatever negative quality is implied.
Politically Correct: Word usage - nest0r - 2010-02-07
These are interesting:
White House Meeting Draws ‘R-Word’ Apology, Pledge From Emanuel
That's so gay.: Deconstructing the word gay and its place in the daily parlance of high school students
Abstract Wrote:Gay high school students do not have it easy. The latest statistics paint a harrowing picture of physical and verbal harassment, with the latter often occurring in the presence of school personnel who intervene only some of the time, and often never. The current popularity of the phrase that's so gay in the secondary school environment has made antigay harassment even more difficult to identify and address. In this study, the author uses a comprehensive case study of one suburban high school to deconstruct the phrase that's so gay, including its frequency of use, its perceived meaning, and its connection to the safety of gay students.
The author performed qualitative group interviews with 122 students and a quantitative survey of 62 teachers and staff members. The resulting data reveal that the idiom is heard daily by students and has several meanings, all of which are negative. The data also indicate statistically significant correlations between the teachers' and staff members' perceptions of the phrase and their views of bullying and school safety.
Through the use of the theory of discourse analysis, the author refutes the assertions of students, teachers, and staff members that the phrase is not connected to sexual orientation, instead drawing links between that's so gay and the interviewees' and respondents' negative associations with individuals who identify as gay.
The author gives further consideration to the idiom within the context of school safety, using social representation theory to establish a connection between the pejorative use of gay in this ubiquitous phrase and the already documented negative experiences of gay students in schools. Finally, implications for students and school personnel, recommendations for schools, and suggestions for future research are discussed.
Politically Correct: Word usage - iAurora - 2010-02-07
IceCream Wrote:Right. I suppose if i start using it the way my grandparents did, to mean joyous, it'll show my support for the homosexual community instead, and a beleif that homosexual people are all happy.As far as it doesn't hurt anyone, it doesn't really matter if you choose to use it this way or not. But you probably understand it yourself.
IceCream Wrote:i've never justified the start of the use of the term. I wouldn't justify the starting of using the term "retard" either. But, i don't see either as serious problems for society at the point they are at now. Perhaps "gay" has further to go. But the meaning has already changed for many people, and for once, without even a negative impact on the homosexual meaning. Progress...As this usage of the word is not universally accepted yet, as you yourself agreed, you are participating in the start of the use of the term in a way. It can either die or become a legitimate part of the language. You are fighting for the latter. Don't put all the responsibility on those who did it before you. You are just as guilty if you proudly continue. The part about no negative impact on the homosexual meaning is simply not true.
IceCream Wrote:The rest of your post is just repeats of the same thing. I think that trying to stop the use of the term will do more to marginalise and detract from the real issues gay people face than it will do good, since the abstract meaning has no relevence to homosexual people anyway.The topic of this thread is word usage, not the problems of minorities in general. No way this discussion detracts from other issues gay people face. If you don't consider it the most important one, it doesn't mean it's not important at all and shouldn't be addressed. The fact that there's at least 1 person from directly affected party participating in this thread actively means it does bother him.
There's no abstract meaning you keep referring to. No universally acceptable one at least. It doesn't really matter if youtube can be homosexual literally. The meaning of the phrase 'This is gay' is 'This is just as bad as gay', not 'This has sex with something of the same gender/kind'. The fact that it's not 100% literal doesn't mean there is no connection at all. Even if there is no for you, a lot of people are still aware of it and so take offense at the usage.
IceCream Wrote:You accuse me of doing nothing to help, but i think you have it the wrong way around. These kind of discussions actively harm opinions towards gay people. That's why i'm arguing against trying to stop the use of the term.In what way do discussions like this harm the opinions towards gay people? How does other people (mostly straight) asking you to think before using words that are very likely to be taken as insult make your opinion towards homosexual people any worse? I don't really accuse you of not helping. My position is more of 'take responsibility for your words and actions and don't harm where it's not really necessary'. But then you are really free to do whatever you want as far as you are ready to accept the consequences, so I'll kinda drop this conversation for now, if you excuse me.
Politically Correct: Word usage - shirokuro - 2010-02-07
IceCream Wrote:You accuse me of doing nothing to help, but i think you have it the wrong way around. These kind of discussions actively harm opinions towards gay people. That's why i'm arguing against trying to stop the use of the term.I actually find I respect people a lot more when they stand up for themselves. I'm disgusted by this use of "gay." I don't think I should have to stand for it.
Politically Correct: Word usage - mezbup - 2010-02-07
I leave for 6 hours and there's 4 more pages. Can't you guys give it a rest?
Politically Correct: Word usage - Offshore - 2010-02-07
mezbup Wrote:I leave for 6 hours and there's 4 more pages. Can't you guys give it a rest?No kidding... I said I would only post once here and that was about 24hrs ago but jeez. 6+ pages in 24hrs?? wow. Now if you'll excuse me, gonna go back to studying nihongo, doing homework, and playing Fatal Frame xD
Politically Correct: Word usage - Thora - 2010-02-07
Thora Wrote:what are you doing, IceCream? It's almost as if you're trying to taunt people with these references to everyone else's inferior intellect, logic, common sense and line of argument. Are you having fun? Is this arguing for the sake of arguing?
the Vinster Wrote:I think IceCream is providing fair counter-arguments, and I haven't seen any "taunting" that is mentioned.
Boddhisamaya Wrote:I haven't seen it either, though she has been attacked a few times.hmm Different radar, I guess. [edit: I sometimes have difficulty telling when people are just debating because they enjoy debating, rather than any genuine interest in the topic. I suspected that IceCream might be the former - based, in part, on what I considered a fairly argumentative style and a comment about arguing either side. It made me somewhat reluctant to respond. It turns out my assumption was wrong. So I deleted my earlier attempt to show what I meant by "taunts" or inflammatory expressions. Apologies to IceCream for singling her out in that way. It wasn't necessary.]
Similarly, I sometimes cannot easily tell when J7 is merrily trying to push people's buttons with absurdity and when he's making a real comment. I think I need a few more of those /jk /sarcasm indicators.
Politically Correct: Word usage - kazelee - 2010-02-07
To sumarize:
Hey, using hate speech is okay, so long as no hate is intended.
No, if you read these examples you'll see why it's not really okay.
Don't give me that! What makes your opinion more valuable.
I'm not saying it's more valuable, just that you should try to understand. And if you read these examples....
Repeat.
Edit: Reopened.
Politically Correct: Word usage - nest0r - 2010-02-07
This is also interesting: Dude, you're a fag: masculinity and sexuality in high school (see bottom of pg. 56 + in the preview especially)
No homo, that's one I hadn't heard before, but a Google search reveals its growing popularity... http://current.com/items/91120515_thats-gay-no-homo.htm
Politically Correct: Word usage - shirokuro - 2010-02-07
@nest0r: Thanks for all the interesting reads.
Re "no homo," I'd never even heard of it until last year, when it was brought up at my old high school's Gay-Straight Alliance. I've still never actually heard it being seriously used.
Update: Sorry everyone, I wrote some pretty hostile things yesterday. I've edited some of my posts to tone them down a bit.
Politically Correct: Word usage - nest0r - 2010-02-07
shirokuro Wrote:@nest0r: Thanks for all the interesting reads.No problem and don't worry, I thought you were marvelously restrained. Sometimes it takes some modulated passion to correct bigotry-nourishing apathy with flexible awareness. We use the symptoms to notice and diagnose the illness, and treat them both together to contain, disinfect and cure. ;p
Re "no homo," I'd never even heard of it until last year, when it was brought up at my old high school's Gay-Straight Alliance. I've still never actually heard it being seriously used.
Update: Sorry everyone, I wrote some pretty hostile things yesterday. I've edited some of my posts to tone them down a bit.
Bonus: Youth Who Self-Identify as Gay, Lesbian or Bisexual at Higher Suicide Risk, Say Researchers
"... However, a group of McGill University researchers in Montreal has now come to the conclusion that self-identity is the crucial risk-factor, rather than actual sexual behaviours... "
This explanation of 'no homo' is really funny and spot-on as well: http://www.illdoctrine.com/2008/08/a_beginners_guide_to_no_homo.html