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Politically Correct: Word usage - nest0r - 2010-02-06
Sorry IceCream, I get the feeling you're in some kind of defensive mode where you're constructing specious ad hoc arguments to score points, attempting to reverse my rhetoric without any real logic to back it up. Having said that, I can't think of anything to add to what I've already said in this forum on the topic and can now refer to those comments if necessary in the future, and I feel confident that what I wrote is enough for now and later, and is irrefutable with logic and common sense. So I guess to those that aren't convinced, maybe come back and read the thread in a year or five or ten when you've had more time to think about it and experience the world. ;p
Politically Correct: Word usage - nest0r - 2010-02-06
IceCream Wrote:what specious ad hoc arguments to score points?This comment is an example. Basically the translation is... "no YOU are" ..
to me, it sounds like your the ones who haven't experienced much of the real world, sitting in your ivory tower and making judgements on things through a dewy eyed view of the world.
if you can't respond to my arguments, perhaps you're the one who ought to question your assumptions.
Politically Correct: Word usage - bodhisamaya - 2010-02-06
I have life experience. I am 40 and have been living and traveling mostly out of a backpack since I was 21. I lived many years among hippies who are extra-PC about language. Actually most of my friends still are hippies. They fear cell phones and computers so I rarely communicate with them. They, as with most naive idealists it seems, are gung ho on talking the right talk and zero when it comes to action that makes a real difference in the world. Hours of emotionally charged self-righteousness was hardly enough motivation for most I have known to wake up early enough to get a job, earn enough money to travel to SE Asia and volunteer in shelters.
So my opinions have been skewed a bit by reality.
Politically Correct: Word usage - Thora - 2010-02-06
what are you doing, IceCream? It's almost as if you're trying to taunt people with these references to everyone else's inferior intellect, logic, common sense and line of argument. Are you having fun? Is this arguing for the sake of arguing?
To me, you're a bit scattered all over the place without a solid grasp of the core. It's becoming hard to respond to you.....hard to take you seriously.
Politically Correct: Word usage - TheVinster - 2010-02-06
I think IceCream is providing fair counter-arguments, and I haven't seen any "taunting" that is mentioned.
Politically Correct: Word usage - bodhisamaya - 2010-02-06
TheVinster Wrote:I think IceCream is providing fair counter-arguments, and I haven't seen any "taunting" that is mentioned.I haven't seen it either, though she has been attacked a few times.
Politically Correct: Word usage - iAurora - 2010-02-06
IceCream Wrote:personally i can't remember the last time i used the word at allThen it would be nice to think about the reasons you encourage others to use it or don't oppose it. It comes down to you making some moral choice anyway.
IceCream Wrote:No matter how many times you tell me this... i just can't agree with that, sorry. I hear it all the time from people who live in my area. Saying that it doesn't exist doesn't make it not exist. Perhaps things are a little further behind where you live, i dunno?If I choose to use something generally offensive on regular basis without thinking about how and why it is so offensive and people around me pick up the habit, it still wouldn't mean that using it in regular speech is universally accepted. If it makes a good half of this forum cringe, you could probably consider the possibility it's not quite there yet. Yes, people haven't made the word 'gay' to be the legitimate synonym for 'bad' where I am, but I'm not really sure I consider it being behind.
IceCream Wrote:on the other hand, new and better terms to describe aspects of sexuality seem to be coming around. For example, i heard the word "pansexual" for the first time on the IRC chat with shiro the other day. I'm not sure i fully understand it's definition or usage correctly yet, but actually, i kind of hope that the terms "gay" and "homosexual" are subsumed within a more developed attitude towards sexuality in the future rather than catergorising people in the very broad and generalised fashion they are today. Personally, i think very few individuals fall into these broad catergories to begin with, and such a division is both unnecessary, and causes more problems than it solves.There is a big difference between new definitions appearing as a result of evolution of the language and groups of people being forced to deal with negativity general audience suddenly decides to associate with a term they've been using to address themselves for a while. Let's say they start calling themselves 'qay' instead. How long will it take before homophobic part of society thinks it's smart to use it as yet another offensive term and school kids pick it up and make kinda acceptable again? Don't you see where problem really lies here and what kind of language development you are supporting by adopting the term and helping it to spread?
IceCream Wrote:...the rest...When I hear someone around me making a racist comment, I usually ask them to give what they just said another thought, as quite often people aren't even realizing how offensive and ignorant some of the things they say without much thinking can be. Some try to argue, some admit they just can't help feeling this way even knowing it's not exactly right, and quite a lot actually realize they weren't being cool, so they shut up and change the topic. I consider it being a part of education and contribution to social awareness. It's also something I can really do without having to give my own life up in attempt to change things for others that I may not even be able to change. I'm an egoistic human being, and an atheist on the top of that. I do have my own plans for this only life I'm given. I don't come up with big and unrealistic plans that will save whole humanity but will probably be too huge and impossible for me to even start trying on making them real. I just don't turn away when I see it, you know. And I try to act responsible in this boring and non-heroic life I'm living.
So should I instead be spending the same amount of time on the forums, proving other people that their concern for others is worthless and harmful, that trying to change little things they can change is not worth it as far as bigger and scarier problems exist in the world, that voicing protest when seeing injustice is harmful and ignoring the problems of minorities while helping hateful terms to spread is completely fine and is actually a way of being considerate for their interests etc... ? Is what you are doing actually better than what I do?
Politically Correct: Word usage - iAurora - 2010-02-06
bodhisamaya Wrote:iAurora,I know life is hard and not fair. I know gay minorities aren't the only ones to suffer and that this particular issue is hardly the biggest of all their problems. I don't claim that using polite language will magically cure all of that.
I think Japanese society is a good example how people who want to hate will do so with language no matter how polite the language they use becomes. I am completely oblivious to insults being given through seemingly the most harmless of conversations. Until later, when I wonder why one party is so sad and ask what the cause was. It is best to pay more attention to motivation than the actual words being used. The sexual confusion associated with teen-agers is not unique to homosexuals. I can't imagine anyone feeling more confused than I did.
Eliminating hurtful words, though a good rule of thumb for personal speech, will be little more than a speed bump for bullies who want to inflict emotional harm.
I just don't understand why would we want to make it even worse. Why would we contribute to the spread of some potentially painful word when we can choose not to do it? Why can't we say 'hey, bullying sucks' instead of going on on how one should just accept being mistreated? These are small things that are very real and possible. Why choose the opposite?
Politically Correct: Word usage - ruiner - 2010-02-06
bodhisamaya Wrote:I have life experience. I am 40 and have been living and traveling mostly out of a backpack since I was 21. I lived many years among hippies who are extra-PC about language. Actually most of my friends still are hippies. They fear cell phones and computers so I rarely communicate with them. They, as with most naive idealists it seems, are gung ho on talking the right talk and zero when it comes to action that makes a real difference in the world. Hours of emotionally charged self-righteousness was hardly enough motivation for most I have known to wake up early enough to get a job, earn enough money to travel to SE Asia and volunteer in shelters.Your opinions are basically that, as usual, of someone who popped into the thread and without really reading what we're saying, starting giving us your pearls of wisdom about PC language in general that are essentially what all of us have already used to premise our arguments before advancing on to make nuanced points actually relevant to the topic. I don't know about the others, but I've mostly ignored your comments because some of its a given, and the rest resembles the 'cop out' of complaining about word suppression and PC sensitivity that we already dealt with. So don't presume that I/nest0r actually considered you long enough to include you in my comment about experience.
So my opinions have been skewed a bit by reality.
Politically Correct: Word usage - bodhisamaya - 2010-02-06
No one is encouraging the use of offensive language. One certainly has to adapt speech according to the circumstance, especially if you have impressionable kids. Too much policing of language leads to a backlash, and doesn't work anyways. If you see someone intentionally using hateful speech, it would be immoral not to act. New users who come on this forum in attack mode are usually gang tackled by everyone else.
iAurora Wrote:Why can't we say 'hey, bullying sucks' instead of going on on how one should just accept being mistreated? These are small things that are very real and possible. Why choose the opposite?Hey! Why is sucking a bad thing? I love people who suck!
From where did that negative phrase originate? Hmmm....
Politically Correct: Word usage - bodhisamaya - 2010-02-06
ruiner Wrote:So don't presume that I/nest0r actually considered you long enough to include you in my comment about experience.The wording of another post made it seem as if another user's opinion was being discounted due to her age. As I have a little more experience, I thought I would include it. I appreciate you ignoring my rambling.
Politically Correct: Word usage - ruiner - 2010-02-06
bodhisamaya Wrote:Age means nothing to me, it's a virtual world. And no problem, we've all been regaled with your anecdotes about international love children at this point, so I think we've got it covered. Also, over time I've internalized many bromides, and I think many other posters have as well, so rather than strafing us with those one-off platitudes you can actually really follow the lines of argument and engage with us in the future. ^_-ruiner Wrote:So don't presume that I/nest0r actually considered you long enough to include you in my comment about experience.The wording of another post made it seem as if another user's opinion was being discounted due to her age. As I have a little more experience, I thought I would include it. I appreciate you ignoring my rambling.
Politically Correct: Word usage - bodhisamaya - 2010-02-06
I actually did read all the posts including ones from the thread this originated from. My post was relevant and hippies these days are not love children. They usually come from middle class families. Most rejoin society after a few years.
Politically Correct: Word usage - shirokuro - 2010-02-06
Jarvik7 Wrote:also reWe're talking about apples and oranges here. I'm not talking about people calling me "gay" as an insult, or "faggot" or "fag" or anything like that. I'm talking about the usage of words like "gay" and "queer" as generically negative modifiers. These insult my sensibilities as a humanist, not just as a member of the queer community. Like "retarded," they attack human dignity, and as such, they should insult all people who believe in equality.hirokuro
You may deny that you have an inferiority complex, but being easily offended is a sure sign of having one. People can call me skinny, cracker, gaijin, Canadian, etc all they want and I don't care. Be the bigger person and just realize that if someone is intentionally offending others or discriminating then they are ignorant. Feel bad for them for their small mindedness. By being offended you are giving them exactly what they want. Stop feeding the trolls.
You may even come to find ignorant people humorous. Someone once called me a chink cause he thought I was Asian, because I was smart(er than them) and had a Korean friend. Ahhh, memories of Texas.
My attitude on these matters isn't as laissez-faire as yours, IceCream's, and mirina's. I don't think these sorts of problems should just be ignored. Responding isn't adding fuel to the fire. I'm not giving anyone what they want. It's actually the very opposite: I'm working towards what I want.
I don't find discrimination and bigotry humorous. I think they are always disgusting and unacceptable. Ignorance and prejudice are dangerous. They shouldn't be scoffed at. Left unchecked, they have the power to create unbelievable destruction. This has been seen time and again throughout history, and is ongoing today. I think it's high time that we recognize and address the serious dangers of the power of hateful language.
One of the big problems that this thread is showing is that a lot of people are unaware of what they're saying when they call something "gay" in this way. Some people do not recognize how harmful its use actually is. Others choose to ignore the damage that they're doing, even after they're informed of it. I hope, however, that this discussion will provide some people with some food for thought, and make them think about the effects of their choices of words and the language they use to express themselves. Through education and discussion, I believe a lot of good can be done, and serious headway can be made into reducing the acceptance and tolerance of prejudicial language.
Politically Correct: Word usage - ruiner - 2010-02-06
bodhisamaya Wrote:I actually did read all the posts including ones from the thread this originated from. My post was relevant and hippies these days are not love children. They usually come from middle class families. Most rejoin society after a few years.I re-read your comments and still don't get the impression of consideration and relevance, but at this point it seems moot.
Politically Correct: Word usage - bodhisamaya - 2010-02-06
You were on the right track ignoring my posts. They are quite boring aren't they?
Now that you read them, and then re-read them, that time has been wasted never to return again. Always go with your first instinct.
Everyone needs to hold a cup of hot coffee like suggested in the Abstract Thoughts thread
Politically Correct: Word usage - shirokuro - 2010-02-06
IceCream Wrote:sorry, you have to learn to deal with personal stuff like that on your own.
People who have been raped have to deal with news reports about rape every day. People with close family members murdered have to deal with constant reminders from the news. Words aren't something you just switch off, and neither does it make sense for us to aim for it to be, just because they hurt someone, somewhere.
Hey, my cousin moved to a town that connects with someone that has bad memories for me, and, yes, every time he visits and talks about it, i think about it. But im never going to ask him to not talk about it. Its something that i should deal with by myself.
Jarvik7 Wrote:Everyone get over themselves and their little traumas.Jarvik7 and IceCream, you're both misunderstanding and misconstruing the issue here. No one's talking about traumas. This discussion is about language that encourages prejudice, not language that brings back bad memories for the hearer.
Politically Correct: Word usage - ruiner - 2010-02-06
bodhisamaya Wrote:Everyone needs to hold a cup of hot coffee like suggested in the Abstract Thoughts threadAhh! The coffee was too hot! I'm so angry.
Politically Correct: Word usage - shirokuro - 2010-02-06
IceCream Wrote:I am hurt and offended personally when I hear it. But I said that it's the same for the word "retarded," too, and I'm not developmentally-disabled. Here I'm part of the minority group that is facing the kind of prejudice that we're talking about, so I do feel a personal connection to this issue. I feel the attack even more forcefully because it is personal: when you call your bus "gay" because you missed it, you are telling me that the reason you're annoyed at the bus is because it's like me. However, this is completely unrelated to traumas related to my sexual orientation or being ashamed of being queer.shirokuro Wrote:Jarvik7 and IceCream, you're both misunderstanding and misconstruing the issue here. No one's talking about traumas. This discussion is about language that encourages prejudice, not language that brings back bad memories for the hearer.well... i thought the point was that you, personally, feel hurt when you hear it used.
As far as encouraging prejudice goes, i've yet to hear a convincing argument that using "gay" in a very abstract sense, to refer to things that have absolutely no connection to homosexuality actually does spread prejudice, instead of moving connotations away from that.
Quote:As far as encouraging prejudice goes, i've yet to hear a convincing argument that using "gay" in a very abstract sense, to refer to things that have absolutely no connection to homosexuality actually does spread prejudice, instead of moving connotations away from that.Several people on here, including nest0r, iAurora, and Thora, have already presented quite a few.
Politically Correct: Word usage - Jarvik7 - 2010-02-06
My thoughts as laid out in this thread stems from two things.
1) I am extremely anti-censorship. I think it makes people stupid, discourages thought/discussion, and has no positive benefit to society.
2) Politically correct speech (and censorship) in general just masks symptoms of the problem and doesn't address the problem itself. If someone hates janitors they are still going to look down on them even if they are called sanitation engineers. You should be happy that many people no longer see being gay as a bad thing and therefore do not see the connect between the "youtube is gay" usage and the attacks on homosexuals. Language changes at a rapid pace.
Politically Correct: Word usage - bodhisamaya - 2010-02-06
In 1999 when Hawaii was trying to become the first state to legalize gay marriage, I was on the side of the road holding a sign supporting it. It was going to pass until the Mormons flooded the airwaves with messages of fear of what Hawaii might become. I get the impression Ice Cream would do the same as I did.
I have had many gay and lesbian friends over the years and have never had this discussion. I had a lesbian wife that lived with me for two years until she was able to get her permanent visa. I made gay jokes and no one ever voiced being offended. Perhaps because they were extremely mild compared to the ones they told about themselves.
This is just a really strange thread because I have never heard this level of sensitivity to phrases clearly not meant to be harmful before. Perhaps it is because over the internet it is difficult to judge intention.
Politically Correct: Word usage - shirokuro - 2010-02-06
IceCream Wrote:I think that a person who isn't homophobic wouldn't use this kind of language, exactly because it does encourage and contribute to homophobia. I find it hard to believe that you are not homophobic if you condone and encourage insensitive and injurious language that is based on contempt and hatred.shirokuro Wrote:I feel the attack even more forcefully because it is personal: when you call your bus "gay" because you missed it, you are telling me that the reason you're annoyed at the bus is because it's like me.don't you think you're reading a little too much into it though? To me, it does seem to reflect more about you than about me that you would think that that connection exists in my mind. Especially if you know the person you're speaking to isn't homophobic, and they would never use the word in a homophobic context.
Quote:If i use it in that context, it has nothing to do with homosexuality to me, in the exact same way that when i say that "the waiter served me dinner" i am not considering him to be my servant, and when i say, "oh, it's a nice light room" i'm not meaning that the room is not heavy.It does have to do with homosexuality and homophobia, whether it does to you or not. Your lack of perception and perspective or ignorance is not a justification for condoning, encouraging, or using prejudicial language and hate speech.
Politically Correct: Word usage - Jarvik7 - 2010-02-06
Shirokuro: Are you similarly offended for crippled people when someone says lame?
Ex: Youtube is lame.
..or for mentally handicapped people (this is now non-PC usage too) when someone says stupid or dumb?
Ex: That movie is dumb. Ex: I stupidly locked my keys in the car.
None of these examples mean:
1) I hate youtube almost as much as I hate crippled people.
2) That movie can only be enjoyed by someone with a mental handicap duurrr durrr *pretend to drool.
3) I locked my keys in my car so I must be mentally handicapped duurrr durrr *pretend to drool.
Politically Correct: Word usage - shirokuro - 2010-02-06
Jarvik7 Wrote:Shirokuro: Are you similarly offended for crippled people when someone says lame?No. I've been over this before. I wrote about this here, where I explained that I'm fine with people saying things like "that sucks" or "that's lame" because the meanings have now been divorced. This isn't the case with "gay." You cannot seriously argue that people who use "gay" are unaware of its homophobic origins, which are still understood and felt by many, including myself.
Ex: Youtube is lame.
Politically Correct: Word usage - nest0r - 2010-02-06
Jarvik7 Wrote:Shirokuro: Are you similarly offended for crippled people when someone says lame?One day the Lame people will given equal legal rights.
Ex: Youtube is lame.