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When will it ever stop??? - pm215 - 2010-02-02
mezbup Wrote:1000 a monthSo, any suggestions on how to do that? At the moment I'm working through a JLPT2 vocab list (about 80% of which I already know and skip, but I wanted to fill in the holes), but actually generating the cards takes forever (mostly finding vaguely plausible example sentences or phrases, which I don't always do but it usually seems worthwhile).
When will it ever stop??? - mezbup - 2010-02-02
pm215 Wrote:The more info on the cards the longer they take to create, if all you want to learn is the word then perhaps that's all that needs to be on there. My vocab deck is pure vocab recognition and it works pretty well. Reviewing sentences (let alone finding) for vocab took longer than I would have liked so I trimmed the fat and have never looked back.mezbup Wrote:1000 a monthSo, any suggestions on how to do that? At the moment I'm working through a JLPT2 vocab list (about 80% of which I already know and skip, but I wanted to fill in the holes), but actually generating the cards takes forever (mostly finding vaguely plausible example sentences or phrases, which I don't always do but it usually seems worthwhile).
It's a real test of memory too if you can see a word in isolation with 0 other ques to give you the answer and be able to recall it's reading and meaning. I've noticed vocab that has come up again in the wild after being put in the deck in such a format and despite it's "lack of context" that hasn't impaired my understanding of it at all
Go for gold.
When will it ever stop??? - Grinkers - 2010-02-02
I think I'll try giving the vocab word only a try.
I think once you read a certain point in your Japanese, sentences become much less useful. I read/listen to countless sentences per day, so another 200 won't really add too much I think. Also I have a pretty good feel for how words are used now. I bust out JLPT2 level grammar subconsciously now, so I don't really need a whole sentence for a lot of words. I "think" I have a good enough feel for when to use a sentence, and when not to use a sentence.
What do you put on the answer side? I think I'll start off with no answer, and if I get it wrong, slap a sentence on the answer (and/or definition). However a big problem with that is I might think I remember it, but actually have it wrong. If I fill out the answer side for every card, I'll be spending just as much time as my current style...
When will it ever stop??? - mezbup - 2010-02-02
I just use an English definition. Usually 3, 4 different words that encompass the range of meanings. It's super quick for me. That and the reading of course.
When will it ever stop??? - Grinkers - 2010-02-02
Have you ever tried Japanese definitions? I think it'd be pretty easy to type the word for the question, do a search on yahoo's 大辞林 + example sentences, and copy that straight into the answer. I find whenever I use Japanese definitions helps keep my mind in "Japanese flow mode", and the Japanese definition is always enough for me to recall the word's meaning (even if I wouldn't understand it 100% when originally looking up the word).
I like copy and paste.
When will it ever stop??? - kame3 - 2010-02-02
unauthorized Wrote:[要出典]。。。This remark about Slavic languages reminded me of an article I read on the internet a few days ago: http://search.japantimes.co.jp/member/member.html?fl20050403x2.htm (see also for a response to this article http://www.languagehat.com/archives/001824.php ,but I cannot really agree with her, as the polite thing is not that difficult imho).
I wouldn't trust wikipedia that much. 50k words is way too much for a speakers of the more complex Slavic languages (which are HARD, even for us native speakers), let alone Japanese which is far poorer in expressive than most.
If anything, the English Wikipedia says word families while the Japanese just states 50000語. There is a huge difference between the two.
Though on the one hand, he has a point about the syntax (see http://hubpages.com/hub/Most_Difficult_Languages_-_Polish), but on the other hand, in my experience Japanese also has a big vocabulary as I (like the topicstarter) encounter so many words I don't know when reading/listening to something. But perhaps this would be the case for any non-Indo European language?
When will it ever stop??? - Yonosa - 2010-02-02
I have also recently started a vocabulary deck. I want to say that honestly imo, it's FAR MORE EFFICIENT IN LEARNING HOW TO READ. I'm up to like 3000 cards entered, and 1600 reviewed so far. Theyre almost all historical terms and stuff that comes up a lot in historical texts, like 大日本帝国、 中華民国、中華人民共和国, 朝鮮民主主義人民共和国. Haha, those are just country names but you get the idea. Also, I highly recommend a surname and place name vocab deck. WORKED WONDER for reading names like 鳩山由紀夫内閣総理大臣。I just love being able to pull out huge kanji rolls like that without a prob, and reviews are much quicker than sentence reviews. Works well in many cases, anyways, had I kept solely to sentences I'm sure my vocab would be a lot lower than it is, individual recall on words is also very crisp and quick. It worked pretty well just to share.
When will it ever stop??? - thurd - 2010-02-02
mezbup Wrote:The more info on the cards the longer they take to create, if all you want to learn is the word then perhaps that's all that needs to be on there. My vocab deck is pure vocab recognition and it works pretty well. Reviewing sentences (let alone finding) for vocab took longer than I would have liked so I trimmed the fat and have never looked back.I completely agree! Since I've started doing just vocab all this "context" talk seems like complete BS.
It's a real test of memory too if you can see a word in isolation with 0 other ques to give you the answer and be able to recall it's reading and meaning. I've noticed vocab that has come up again in the wild after being put in the deck in such a format and despite it's "lack of context" that hasn't impaired my understanding of it at all
On one hand there is this drive to do n+1 and that a sentence should be simple, but that doesn't give it any context thus its advantage over a simple word is nonexistent. If a sentence is long but still n+1 then it takes longer than a single word to review, benefit of reviewing other vocab in the same sentence actually isn't positive because it makes whole SRS pointless since you're spending time "reviewing" stuff you already know... Not to mention creating a quality sentence is much more time consuming than a simple vocab card, time which could be spent on learning/immersion.
I've also noticed the same thing as mezbup: learning in isolation actually makes me remember a word better and helps me "find" a word in native materials (listening). I can clearly see benefits of immersion now, each new word I learn becomes "audible" for me. It just didn't happen when I was doing sentences.
This has also worked wonders for my motivation since I can clearly see progress and just keep on going. I have around 200 reviews daily, add 100 new ones and it all takes me around 2h. Vocab is also great because its just much "simpler" than learning kanji, I couldn't keep up with 50 kanji a day but with words its completely doable.
Of course everyone is different. What works for us doesn't need to work for everyone. But if you're a little tired of doing sentences try just doing vocab. Sentences will come later when you start real reading...
As for Slavic languages I do think they are insane. Chinese and Japanese are relatively simple if you strip them off their alphabets. Korean I've heard/read is much harder despite having a logical and relatively simple alphabet all thanks to complexity of the language itself. As for Polish, the more I read about it from a learners perspective the more I think its an insane language to learn, kudos to anyone who tries.
When will it ever stop??? - Evil_Dragon - 2010-02-02
Yonosa Wrote:WORKED WONDER for reading names like 鳩山由紀夫内閣総理大臣。Watching the news once should take care of that.
When will it ever stop??? - usis35 - 2010-02-02
Reading these posts, we can say that maybe SRS works better with sentences at initial levels. Afterwards, maybe after KO2001, it seems that SRS'ing only words go faster, possibly because what sentences provide, besides of context, is some grammar, that the intermediate user no longer needs to review over and over again, as it will be found in other materials.
When will it ever stop??? - Tobberoth - 2010-02-02
I personally find sentences important even in vocab decks. The connection between the Japanese word and the English word is just way too loose, by adding an example sentence in Japanese to the answer side, you get a better and more stable idea of what the word actually means. Especially abstract words.
When will it ever stop??? - pm215 - 2010-02-02
Tobberoth Wrote:I personally find sentences important even in vocab decks. The connection between the Japanese word and the English word is just way too loose, by adding an example sentence in Japanese to the answer side, you get a better and more stable idea of what the word actually means. Especially abstract words.Yes, this is why I like having phrases for at least some cards. It's just it sometimes takes ages to find something usefully illuminating which doesn't have another three tricky words in it...
When will it ever stop??? - Yonosa - 2010-02-02
Evil_Dragon Wrote:Haha, true, but thats one example only, I can also read all the 徳川家, also people like, 清少納言、紫式部、essentially I am familiarizing my self with the necessary historical figures. also, 年号、 明治時代、大正時代、昭和時代、平成時代。 all the stuff that gets in the way of really being able to dive into japanese. Oh also, I can read the top 50 cities in japan, as well, all the 都道府県 and their map locations. I can name all basic, reptiles, amphibians, birds, mammals. I can name all basic astronomy terms 太陽、水星、金星、地球、小惑星帯、火星、木星、土星、天王星、海王星、冥王星、流星、彗星、衛星. I can easili just recall loads of words no prob, there is a problem with more concept-based words, but then I simply don't try to use those words myself, but picking up a basic understanding and the reading, helps me to understand its use while reading without any trouble usually. Imo, it beats finding sentences for every fact you want to know. Its like overkill imo, to have a whole sentence just to learn the word 縞馬 or something, it justs adds to my review time. I just pile vocab on lately and Ive noticed huge improvements in listening, and reading comprehesion, which werent expected... I mean, I'm reading certain historical based texts without much trouble thanks to this. Im starting the same process in chinese very soon, and cant wait to see where it takes me. Im interested in later flipping these decks and doing production cards, but Ill wait till i have like 30k vocab or so before all that.Yonosa Wrote:WORKED WONDER for reading names like 鳩山由紀夫内閣総理大臣。Watching the news once should take care of that.
one more note: this takes the intimidation out of the 四字熟語 too since you can really focus on each kanji and not worry about the surrounding sentence.
When will it ever stop??? - Yonosa - 2010-02-02
Tobberoth Wrote:I personally find sentences important even in vocab decks. The connection between the Japanese word and the English word is just way too loose, by adding an example sentence in Japanese to the answer side, you get a better and more stable idea of what the word actually means. Especially abstract words.True, but if you're reading and reviewing in the long haul, that's gonna work itself out eventually anyways. I think if it is seen as a long term goal then it wont make much a difference, but its important to spend a lot of time with just the japanese, so pick up that book you've been eyeing at, and get some real practice after the vocab reviews. Works better than worrying about a sentence in each vocab card.
When will it ever stop??? - Transparent_Aluminium - 2010-02-02
Yonosa Wrote:can name all basic, reptiles, amphibians, birds, mammals. I can name all basic astronomy terms 太陽、水星、金星、地球、小惑星帯、火星、木星、土星、天皇制、海王星、冥王星、流星、彗星、衛星.Where in the sky is the 天皇制 exactly?
When will it ever stop??? - Yonosa - 2010-02-02
Transparent_Aluminium Wrote:hehe!, A little mistake brings humility i guess, EMPERIAL SYTEM STAR!!, of course I meant 天王星！。 I shouldve looked more closely hehe. Its the same pronunciation, but that jsut goes to show show quickly I scribbled that down.Yonosa Wrote:can name all basic, reptiles, amphibians, birds, mammals. I can name all basic astronomy terms 太陽、水星、金星、地球、小惑星帯、火星、木星、土星、天皇制、海王星、冥王星、流星、彗星、衛星.Where in the sky is the 天皇制 exactly?
When will it ever stop??? - Tobberoth - 2010-02-02
Yonosa Wrote:Nah, I don't think that's enough. When you get to a high level and read advanced material, you run into words you know are slightly special in usage and you realize even if you read a few hours a day, the chances of you running into that word enough in the next 3 months is very limited. In those cases, it's good to have it on the card or you will just work on that japanese -> english connection.Tobberoth Wrote:I personally find sentences important even in vocab decks. The connection between the Japanese word and the English word is just way too loose, by adding an example sentence in Japanese to the answer side, you get a better and more stable idea of what the word actually means. Especially abstract words.True, but if you're reading and reviewing in the long haul, that's gonna work itself out eventually anyways. I think if it is seen as a long term goal then it wont make much a difference, but its important to spend a lot of time with just the japanese, so pick up that book you've been eyeing at, and get some real practice after the vocab reviews. Works better than worrying about a sentence in each vocab card.
I don't think it's detrimental, any "error" is fixed when you run into the word again, but I think it helps a lot with memorization to have a good grasp of a word, if you know it's sort of uncommon, adding a sentence is a simple safety measure. (Personally I take most of my example sentences from the dictionaries where I look the words up to learn them, so it takes almost zero extra time).
When will it ever stop??? - Yonosa - 2010-02-02
I accept that, for more uncommon vocab it would certainly help, but then again if I came upon a word that I felt i didn't exactly understand, I would just look it up in a japanese to japanese dictionary which i am capable of doing, but find using english for most factual things a solid way to go, after all a damn 縞馬 is a damn 縞馬。
When will it ever stop??? - Thora - 2010-02-02
I came across a tiny dusty book in a used bookstore the other day. It's like the Tae Kim Grammar Guide of the 1930s. "Japanese in Thirty Hours" by Eiichi Kiyooka. Best I can tell, it was originally developed as a condensed one semester course at Columbia and then published as a self study method.
Anyway, the author had this to say about vocabulary:
"An average man cannot learn and master more than five or six words a day unless he makes the language study his chief concern. Too many words are more confusing than helpful. Words should be picked up from a dictionary whenever necessity arises. One should not be too ambitious about vocabulary. Learning sentence structure is more important.
One interesting endeavour made in these lessons is the use of the foreign words in Japanese such as "table," "knife," "fork," and "notebook." There are some 600 of them in use - an unexpectedly large number until one makes a thorough investigation."
Let's see...5 words/day x 15 wks = 525 words!
If only he could see you guys now! It's also interesting to compare how some grammar was taught then. (btw, the author was Yukichi Fukuzawa's grandson and translator.)
Re sentences vs. words: Why not just mix it up? Collocation is what's important. So add a sentence fragment(s) to reinforce both meaning and use when reviewing. 2 birds... no extra time to review. Concrete nouns and obvious words are probably fine on their own.
When will it ever stop??? - yudantaiteki - 2010-02-02
Actually there are still some pedagogy systems in use that have vocabulary numbers similar to that. The idea is that for a beginner, it's better to (a) master sentence structure/grammar, and (b) master the usage of a relatively small number of words, rather than trying to cram in a passing familiarity with large amounts of vocab. Typically mastering the usage of words includes the ability to use it in speech, in natural situations and structures, with correct pronunciation and accent. So it's a little more than just a flash card.
If your goal is mostly reading, you can go a lot faster than that (and I think the proponents of such systems, at least nowadays, would not say that a 500-words-in-15-weeks number would be maintained indefinitely, that would just be at the beginning stages.)
When will it ever stop??? - Thora - 2010-02-02
ya think?
When will it ever stop??? - Yonosa - 2010-02-02
Yeah、 but then again, I take vocabulary drilling mostly as vast improvements in kanji compound reading and very fast recognition. Also, imo, most meaning are very easily remembered because of the kanji than are often used in the words. Most people support heisig because it gives you a step into familiarizing the student with characters. I think that it falls a bit short on recognition, and during the sentence method, not enough time is directed at some words, which in my decks anyways have led to some cards being repeated more often. Im using my vocabulary deck as another way of opening up the language. I mean I dont think its necessarily the fastest way to use correct japanese asap. But I do think its the fastest way to read almost anything the student sees in more quickly. I do over 100 vocabulary a dya currently. Yeah, Im not super concrete on it all yet, but hey were all sticking with this huh? So if I am learning a new reading today, and I might use that reading tomorrow, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not for a whole year. But the point is if I stick with japanese. I will most see it eventually, and maybe the first time I see it I can only read it and forget the meaning, maybe I don't. But I guess a year or two later I might have those meanings down, or maybe even years after that. The point is if we maintain the lifestyle it will fill itself in eventually, for those of us where that doesnt happen we probably have brain defficiencies somewhere up there.
MY MAIN POINT:
I don't want to have to learn the damn kanji reading for the most common things for the next 10 years. I will try and cram it and maybe I only maintain half of what I learn. But damn half of a multiples of thousands ain't too bad. Beats, the indirect learn one reading at a time method for my type of personality.