+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The Japanese language (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-10.html)
+--- Thread: Approaches to pitch accent? (/thread-4908.html)
Approaches to pitch accent? - Tobberoth - 2010-01-28
vileru Wrote:Sorry, but that's not the same thing at all. I could learn another Swedish accent in days if I wanted to, but we are talking about people studying Japanese, not people fluent in Japanese/natives who want to imitate people from other areas. When you speak Japanese perfectly and fluently, feel free to start studying accents, but trying to study fine subtle differences in pitch in Japanese vocabulary (especially since it varies depending on loads of factors) long before you're even fluent sounds like a bad idea to me. While you may think you're doing it perfectly, Japanese people will probably not agree. When you're so good that you have the ability that they have to make that distinction, that's when you're ready to work on it yourself.Tobberoth Wrote:Just because you know the pitch in a word doesn't mean you're pronouncing it right, and Anki sure as hell can't detect it.That's why I emphasized the importance of having a native speaker continuously check up on your pronunciation. Of course, the only way you can learn correct pitch accent is by verifying your pronunciation with a native speaker. The purpose of SRSing it is to make sure that you don't forget the pronunciation since most people cannot practice pitch accents on a daily basis with native speakers (and even if they could, they would probably forget to bring up words that they want to practice with pitch accent; SRSing seems to eliminate/diminish this problem).
It doesn't mean that pitch accents cannot be learned in a timely manner simply because it takes most people years to learn them. Most people do not undergo focused study on pitch accents. I'm sure if someone were to attempt to do so, the time required to master a pitch accent would be far less. Voice actors are a prime example of this. Through focused studies on accents, voice actors have been able to master several accents, even subtle ones, in a reasonable amount of time. Take this woman for example. I'm not sure if she can correctly pronounce every word in the dictionary in those accents, but she does a fine job, and I can vouch that her pronunciation of the American accents is impressive (even the slight variation between Seattle/LA accents is dead-on!) . I doubt she studied each of these individual accents for years. A few months of moderate, focused study doesn't seem like an unreasonable amount of time to approach a native level, or at least a near-native level, accent.
I doubt there's any difference in ability between a shadower and a "SRS pitch student" when it comes to actually speaking real Japanese, having a real conversation.
Approaches to pitch accent? - yudantaiteki - 2010-01-28
I wonder what you would think of the system I teach in, where students are corrected on their pitch accent starting on day 1!
Approaches to pitch accent? - Grinkers - 2010-01-28
vix86 Wrote:I'm pretty fluent and have "mastered" my dictionary. I was specifically wondering what the arrows mean in a specific entry. Sorry for being unclear.Grinkers Wrote:I recall seeing a huge selection of books the Dictionaries at Bic Camera. I'll go check it out tomorrow, it looks like a very useful book.Without knowing which Sharp dictionary you have exactly so I can check what it does have I can't suggest too much. Though, I suspect your dictionary probably has everything that mine has that I find useful. ie: 広辞苑 & 明鏡 国語辞書, the 新漢語林 for 漢字辞書 (complete with stroke order lookup, etymology, etc.), basic 英和・和英辞書、a good 英英辞書 is good to have too sometimes especially for the pesky words sometimes used in the 和英. I find the 和英 (プログレッシブ和英中辞典）tends to have British English slant so as an American English user I'm sometimes caught off guard by some of the definitions.
I've never done any updates or extra installations for my dictionary yet... sounds fun! Any other good recommendations (not specifically accent related)?
Actually I'm sitting here looking through some of the dictionaries not on hotkeys on mine and I have a dictionary here called 「みんなで国語辞書!」 its basically a slang dictionary for Japanese. Its broken into sections: 若いの言葉、ネット・メールの言葉、オノマトペの言葉、言葉さまざま作品集、学校の言葉、業界・専門用語、日常の言葉・通の言葉、方言メモ。 I actually never realized I had this, this thing is actually pretty interesting, but I see it lacks some stuff.
What you need or could use will obviously depend upon everyday need and Japanese level. If you don't have a good dictionary for 敬語 you might look into seeing if they have that as well. My dictionary has 「敬語早わかり辞典学研」 but I haven't got a clue how to use it to be honest (its menu driven and category based, not keyword lookup).
-Vix
http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?p=%E7%AE%B8&enc=UTF-8&stype=0&dtype=0&dname=0ss
Somebody mentioned there's accent marks here, and all I'm trying to figure out how it works. (The 大辞林 on my sharp has the same marks).
Approaches to pitch accent? - yudantaiteki - 2010-01-28
The number indicates the accent. Typically the way accent is described in Japanese is that an unaccented word is LHHH... whereas an accented word has a pitch fall somewhere in the word. The "1" after はし there means that the pitch fall occurs after the first mora, so this is HL. 橋 has a 2, meaning that it's LH (and then the pitch fall would occur on the next mora.)
IOW, 箸が is HLL, 橋が is LHL.
Different references use different techniques, but the basic idea stays the same that they're going to be marking the place where the pitch falls in the word. So if you see an arrow somewhere in the word, it's probably the place where the pitch falls (as someone mentioned earlier).
Approaches to pitch accent? - vileru - 2010-01-28
Tobberoth Wrote:Sorry, but that's not the same thing at all. I could learn another Swedish accent in days if I wanted to, but we are talking about people studying Japanese, not people fluent in Japanese/natives who want to imitate people from other areas. When you speak Japanese perfectly and fluently, feel free to start studying accents, but trying to study fine subtle differences in pitch in Japanese vocabulary (especially since it varies depending on loads of factors) long before you're even fluent sounds like a bad idea to me. While you may think you're doing it perfectly, Japanese people will probably not agree. When you're so good that you have the ability that they have to make that distinction, that's when you're ready to work on it yourself.I'm glad you pointed out that learning an accent is going to be different and more difficult for a foreign speaker compared to a native speaker. However, I cannot say if it is better to learn an accent before/after a certain level of fluency. On one hand, one might not be prepared to recognize and replicate subtle differences in pitch. On the other hand, it may be more difficult to reverse the habits of an advanced learner. Although, I don't think it'll hurt a beginner to at least make an effort to notice pitch accents as they're encountered.
At any rate, I introduced the example of voice actors in response to the claim that it takes years, even for natives, to develop a regional accent. My point was to show that if one already has a solid grasp of the language, minus the desired accent, then it's entirely possible to develop such an accent within the timeframe of weeks and months, not years. The example proves that acquiring an accent is not as difficult of a goal as others have made it seem.
Tobberoth Wrote:I doubt there's any difference in ability between a shadower and a "SRS pitch student" when it comes to actually speaking real Japanese, having a real conversation.What is a shadower? Is it someone who carefully listens to the sounds of a spoken language, and then tries to replicate it? If so, then wouldn't SRSing pitch accents be the same thing as shadowing? I would assume that if someone made a pitch accent production card, the card would simply play a sound file, and then the person would try to replicate the sound (and maybe the other side would have helpful details for pronunciation). The advantage of SRSing pitch accents is consistency, which isn't guaranteed with practice in conversation. Of course, this doesn't mean that SRSing is a substitute for conversation, but rather a complement to it.
Approaches to pitch accent? - Tobberoth - 2010-01-28
I was talking about shadowing in general, not in an SRS. For example, listening to an audiobook and shadowing that. And when I'm talking about SRSing pitch accent, I'm talking about getting a word on one side and having to know what the actual pitch is (which the answer side shows).
I'm talking about the difference in normal training of pronunciation (shadowing and just mimicking) and trying to make pitch into something you have to memorize on a word by word basis.
Approaches to pitch accent? - vileru - 2010-01-28
Tobberoth Wrote:I'm talking about the difference in normal training of pronunciation (shadowing and just mimicking) and trying to make pitch into something you have to memorize on a word by word basis.Maybe a SRS is better used for problem words, whereas shadowing/mimicking is more useful for general practice? Someone practicing pitch accents is most likely an advanced learner, and would most likely have weaned off SRS use to the point where it's only used to focus on a few problem areas. Again, I can't say for sure what is a better method since there aren't any examples to point to. Maybe some advanced learners at this stage can comment on this?
Approaches to pitch accent? - EratiK - 2011-10-27
Mini-necro.
We should talk about pitch accent more often.
Just wanted to say, for others broke-ass noobs out there, the Kenkyusha (Oxford) pocket dictionary (paper dictionary) has pitch accent information (standard Japanese) available for every entry, which is great because, even if you don't have audio, shadowing it allows you to train your vocal muscles.
Somebody on the wikipedia made the remark it's like tones without actual "tones", and I kind of agree; so it takes learners from a non-tonal language like myself a lot of practice to even start pronouncing pitch accent comfortably (and even more with feedback to start pronouncing correctly).
I'm guessing the larger version and the electronic version of Kenkyusha provide this information too. Though I don't know if they have the same square wave notation (which I really like because it's so straight forward).
Approaches to pitch accent? - AlexandreC - 2011-10-27
The idea that pitch is not important is ill-conceived. I think people who say that either say so because they find it too hard to work on, or because (especially as Japanese people or teachers) they have no idea how it works. I frequently find myself in situations where I use a word with the wrong pitch, especially if it’s in isolation, and I get blank stares until someone figures out the right pitch. It’s not trivial and it’s not useless. If you care at all about your pronunciation or about being understood with clarity, pitch is a necessity.
I didn't even know pitch existed until about 6 months into my studies. I think I'd vaguely heard of the classic haSHI vs. HAshi example, but nothing else was ever mentioned in any of the books I was using, so I never really thought about it. I'm sure the same is true of the vast majority of Japanese learners.
As I started meeting with language partners, it quickly became obvious not only that they were consistent in pronouncing certain syllables differently than others, but that there was no obvious reason or pattern for it. Since I cared about my pronunciation and asked for corrections, I was also corrected on pitch, and I suddenly realized how important it was.
The first obvious problem is that information is VERY hard to come by. I bought an NHK Accent dictionary, then an electronic dictionary, but knowing the pitch of lexical entries is only part of the problem. I started realizing that strange things happened to verbs and adjectives when different endings were added, and that nouns changed when they formed compounds. I could see there was no way I could produce verbs correctly unless 1) I knew if the verb had pitch and where it fell, and 2) I understood exactly what processes influenced pitch and how they worked.
I couldn’t find any clear explanation beyond the basic LH/HL noun patterns – at least nothing in English or in a Japanese that I could understand – and none of the Japanese people or teachers I asked had any clear idea of what was happening. I decided to find out myself. Eventually, I understood how it all worked, and how verb and adjective endings carried their own pitch info and were responsible for making the pitch move around – I explained some of what I learned in this thread.
Knowing how pitch works is the first step, but it’s only part of the problem: you still need to integrate that information into your speech pattern and it needs to become automatic. Some people earlier in the thread have mentioned using SRS to learn pitch. I'm sure it would help learn the pitch of individual words, but you still need to use them naturally, and all involved processes need to become automatic, so a LOT of practice is needed. I don't personally shadow, but I do a lot of self-talk and after I carefully figured out how the pitch should be, I practice repeating it as naturally as possible. I always made a point of being careful about my pitch, and I always asked my language partners to correct me and be strict.
Approaches to pitch accent? - kitakitsune - 2011-10-27
Those of us who learned Japanese in regions of Japan with strong unique accents while using textbooks published using 標準語 exclusively are totally screwed ....
Approaches to pitch accent? - buonaparte - 2011-10-27
http://www.mediafire.com/?k1dgjyrx9a36ovv
Here's some info about Japanese pronunciation and resources. I haven't uploaded the practical stuff (audio, books, etc). too bulky - more than one giga bytes.
Approaches to pitch accent? - jishera - 2011-10-27
Some of the textbooks mention pitch accent and even have markers on the vocab. I know JFE (Japanese for Everyone) has it. I know some others do too when I looked through samples. Audio definitely helps clarify. Often if I see the vocab word with the accent marker, I can't pronounce it correctly because I think too hard about it. But since I have the corePlus Anki deck with audio, that helps a ton. I'll hear it and then I realize how it's supposed to sound. English actually has accent too, we just don't think about it (and it seems to be more of an emphasis on syllables than a High/Low pitch). Granted, you'd probably be understood even if you got the accent wrong in English, but it would still sound weird. Since Japanese has so many homophones pitch accent is probably more important.
Thanks for the link to the thread AlexandreC, it looks helpful.
Approaches to pitch accent? - mottles - 2011-10-27
I don't suppose there are any native speakers who could record the difference between 端、橋、箸?
I have no idea which one is which in terms of pitch accent.
In English, on youtube, there's a thing going around where native English speakers state their hometown, and then read a list of various words and a few sentences (I've forgotten the name). Does anyone know of anything like that in Japanese?
Approaches to pitch accent? - louischa - 2011-10-27
Since the print edition of Kenkyuusha has pitch accents, does anyone know whether the CD ROM version or the web version has them, too? I am planning to buy one to input directly to Anki.
Also, does anyone knows where to order that from or where to click to buy access to the web version? I know the Kenkyuusha website (http://kod.kenkyusha.co.jp/service/) but since this is only my 13th month of Japanese learning, that website is still Japanese to me!
Approaches to pitch accent? - kitakitsune - 2011-10-27
Osaka pitch > Tokyo pitch
Approaches to pitch accent? - vonPeterhof - 2011-10-27
mottles Wrote:I don't suppose there are any native speakers who could record the difference between 端、橋、箸?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Japanese_pitch_accent_demonstration.ogg
Approaches to pitch accent? - Javizy - 2011-10-28
louischa Wrote:Since the print edition of Kenkyuusha has pitch accents, does anyone know whether the CD ROM version or the web version has them, too? I am planning to buy one to input directly to Anki.You don't need to buy a print dictionary; you can find dictionaries online that have pitch accent codes. If you don't understand them, check out this site first. The higher numbers continue to mark the accented モーラ, e.g. 神経伝達物質 is 9 (ぶ). I found this nice little visualisation on 知恵袋.
Also, does anyone knows where to order that from or where to click to buy access to the web version? I know the Kenkyuusha website (http://kod.kenkyusha.co.jp/service/) but since this is only my 13th month of Japanese learning, that website is still Japanese to me!
「１」 ￣|＿ ＿ ＿ ＿ (＿) ＝「除夜の鐘（が）」
「２」 ＿|￣|＿ ＿ ＿ (＿) ＝「うどんすき(が)」
「３」 ＿|￣ ￣|＿ ＿ (＿) ＝「初詣(が)」
「４」 ＿|￣ ￣ ￣|＿ (＿) ＝「招き猫(が)」
「５」 ＿|￣ ￣ ￣ ￣|(＿) ＝「こんにちは(が)」
「０」 ＿|￣ ￣ ￣ ￣ (￣) ＝「お年玉（が）」
You can see it in 大辞林 on Yahoo辞書 after the hiragana here. Just make sure you select 大辞林, since it defaults to 大辞泉, which doesn't contain them (why I'm not particularly excited about the iOS5 built-in dictionary). 三省堂 also seems to have it. I use 大辞林 on my iPod.
Approaches to pitch accent? - nadiatims - 2011-10-28
does anyone really try to memorise this stuff?
Approaches to pitch accent? - yudantaiteki - 2011-10-28
Absolutely. If you want to have good pitch accent, you have to study it. Very few people have the ability to pick it up naturally without trying.
(You don't really need a chart for the accent codes if you just understand the way Japanese accent works. Unaccented (0) means that the pitch starts low, then is high for the rest of the word (i.e. LHHH...) Accented words have a pitch fall after the indicated syllable. So 2 = LHLL..., 3 = LHHL..., etc. The only exception to this is 1; 1 indicates that the word starts high and drops.
Of course the pitch changes depending on compounds and place within a sentence. So 早稲田 is 1 (HLL) but in 早稲田大学 it becomes 0 and the accent of 大学 (is that 2? 3?) is used instead.
Approaches to pitch accent? - Omoishinji - 2011-10-28
louischa Wrote:Since the print edition of Kenkyuusha has pitch accents, does anyone know whether the CD ROM version or the web version has them, too? I am planning to buy one to input directly to Anki.I believe that getting one of the two 発音辞典 dictionaries would be best. That is the NHK日本語発音アクセント辞典 新版 or 新明解日本語アクセント辞典 CD付き. Both include a lot of information, including the variation in the accents. They list that are similar together and include the different accents. It is never to early to work on correct accent.
Also, does anyone knows where to order that from or where to click to buy access to the web version? I know the Kenkyuusha website (http://kod.kenkyusha.co.jp/service/) but since this is only my 13th month of Japanese learning, that website is still Japanese to me!
I wouldn't say that people memorize the accents, but remembers then while trying to reproduce words correctly. The one that drives me crazy is しぼう.
Approaches to pitch accent? - kitakitsune - 2011-10-28
I like how everyone in southwest Japan has an 'incorrect' accent.
Approaches to pitch accent? - yudantaiteki - 2011-10-28
kitakitsune Wrote:I like how everyone in southwest Japan has an 'incorrect' accent.No different from any other country; there's always some version of the pronunciation that's considered standard, usually associated with the capital city or other large area.
Approaches to pitch accent? - Javizy - 2011-10-28
nadiatims Wrote:does anyone really try to memorise this stuff?Memorise what? All you need to know is where the accent is, and some dictionaries have a handy little number that tells you. Can you make an argument for not learning such a simple pattern that provides immediate benefits? Why do people make such a big deal out of learning pronunciation?
kitakitsune Wrote:I like how everyone in southwest Japan has an 'incorrect' accent.I don't recall seeing anyone say that. It's up to you what accent you learn, but as long as it's inconsistent, then it's incorrect.
Approaches to pitch accent? - nadiatims - 2011-10-28
Javizy Wrote:Memorise what? All you need to know is where the accent is, and some dictionaries have a handy little number that tells you. Can you make an argument for not learning such a simple pattern that provides immediate benefits? Why do people make such a big deal out of learning pronunciation?A pretty huge chunk of my vocabulary was learned via reading, and I never bothered memorising where the pitch falls for each word. As these words entered my passive listening vocabulary, and my listening comprehension improved, my accent has improved accordingly. That includes getting intonation right, and yet I have never attempted to memorise it on a per word basis, or even seen it in a dictionary. It is enough, to simply do your best to speak japanese as you hear it. First you ditch the anglophone stress, and then adopt Japanese intonation easily once you can hear the difference. Once you can kind of switch intonation modes so to speak and can tune in to the pitch accent you start adopting it quite unconsciously. Among everyone I've ever met (and this goes for japanese and english natives) quality of accent has been pretty much proportional to their degree of fluency in the language and becomes near native with immersion. I've never met someone with great accent, but who has trouble making sentences (ie. beginner with near native accent). It just doesn't happen. People who are fluent and immersed in a native environment for the most part develop great accents. Those who aren't immersed tend to retain their foreign accents despite otherwise having good language ability, including academic knowledge of pronunciation and grammar and so on. I've seen quite a few Japanese English teachers pass on incorrect information about pronunciation that they have gleaned from books.
Approaches to pitch accent? - zigmonty - 2011-10-28
kitakitsune Wrote:I like how everyone in southwest Japan has an 'incorrect' accent.No, i think it's a matter of picking an accent. An Australian accent isn't wrong just because the standard english accent is Midwest American (or RP if you're living in the past). But if you speak in a weird jumbled up mix of both accents, you'll be less understandable than someone who consistently speaks in one. If you speak in a consistent accent, but the listener is unfamiliar with it, then they'll struggle to understand, just as a lot of americans struggle with say a thick Scottish accent. If you're making up your own accent as you go along... well, that's worse.