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+--- Thread: Tell me what to do with my life :) (/thread-4882.html)
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Tell me what to do with my life :) - igordesu - 2010-01-23
JK. I don't really need you tell me what to do with my life. I'd just like to hear your opinions.
I've been thinking about what I want to do with my life a lot lately. I suppose that's a good thing though
After a bunch of craziness in my life over the past 5 years (which I'll spare you), I've decided that it's time to decide on my ultimate goal. In two years-ish I'll graduate with my bachelor's degree from the University of Wisconsin (not Madison) with a major in English (literature emphasis, not teaching). I realize that this is an incredibly generic degree. In some ways the possibilities for what I can do after graduation are endless, and in some ways they don't even exist at all.
After much, much thought and contemplation, I have decided that building a life in Japan is my major goal. I know that may sound silly and immature, but I have thought about it a lot. And....after all, we only live once
Obviously, this whole process will require learning Japanese to high degree of fluency. Don't worry, I'm on it
Now that we have that out of the way, I realize that there are many, many ways to go about "building a life in Japan." I have been considering graduate school here in the US, and that seems like the best option. This is where I'd like to hear your opinions.
A popular option among many English majors is Law school. Would any of you recommend this? I've done some research/googling, but to pretty much no avail. Is it possible to go to Law school here in the US and somehow land a job as a lawyer in Japan? Would it even be worth it? I'll be honest, I'm kind of clueless about this.
Another option would be for me to go to graduate school and continue studying English. Possibly literature, but most likely something like linguistics or teaching English as a second language -- basically, something that would allow me to teach English at a Japanese University (hopefully something permanent). What are your thoughts on this? Yay? Nay? What would you do?
Yeah, so....as you can tell, I'm pretty clueless. I would be infinitely grateful for any help or advice. Actually, if you have other ideas besides the ones that I've listed, let's hear 'em!
PS. I'm really, really sorry for how long this got. If you read my whole, pathetic post, you get a virtual pat on the back
Tell me what to do with my life :) - matthewmuller - 2010-01-23
Hey Igor,
My own experience: I Studied for a year in Japan while still in college via an exchange program, was able to get credits and still graduate if 4 years, for about the same cost as a year in the states. I went to Kansai Gaidai and loved it. I was also glad to be able to be in Japan as a student, studying full time and able to hang out with other students. I then taught English for a year on the JET Program: Do it if you can since it really beats working at a private English school and you are much more integrated into society. I then came back to the States and freaked out about what to do with my life, so I got a Master's in Japanese Studies from the University of Washington, thinking I would go into Academia. Some of my friends went on to do stuff related to Japan, but for me I didn't and felt like the M.A was a poor choice for me. One of my main thoughts for you is that you should check out Japan before deciding you want to 'make a life there.' Graduate school can be cool if you are getting a degree with skills that make you more employable either here or there. ie. engineering, accounting, mba, even teaching, Just having a MA doesn't make things any easier, Japanese language skills are awesome, but you really need to combine them with something else to differentiate yourself and be competetive. Good Luck!
Tell me what to do with my life :) - epsilondelta - 2010-01-23
igordesu Wrote:I have decided that building a life in Japan is my major goal. I know that may sound silly and immature, but I have thought about it a lot.I don't think it sounds silly or immature at all, but it's perhaps a bit dangerous. Here's why:
Right now I have Japan at the top of my list of countries to potentially live in some day (so I'm seriously thinking about the possibility of immigrating in the long run), but I'm still definitely keeping the option of living in other places (Europe, Canada, maybe even Hong Kong or so). Why? Because I've been to Japan for two months of my life, and it's really hard to judge at this point whether I'll still like living there after a few years, being a white girl and all. So I've decided that I want to acquire near-native-level fluency in Japanese, but I'm not tying that to actually living in Japan in the long run. This way, once I go to Japan to work (or study, maybe), I won't have a major crisis if I don't like it. I'll still have my Japanese fluency as a great piece of education.
In other words, you really want to at least plan for the possibility of not liking Japan once you live there for a longer span of time, or the let-down if you find that it's only so-so rather than great will be really really painful.
Somewhat relatedly, while the place you live in definitely matters and makes a difference for your happiness, I don't think you can expect it to actually fulfill you in life (and it kinda sounds like you're trying to get that from living in Japan). In other words, it's not a substitute for things like a fulfilling job, relationship, or whatever it is that people think of as "major goals".
Tell me what to do with my life :) - yudantaiteki - 2010-01-23
As epsilondelta indicates, do not try to plan for a life in Japan before you have lived there at all. Living permanently in another country is a huge step, and you shouldn't assume that you'll be able to do it or like it.
Unfortunately, being a lawyer in Japan is probably a really long shot; a lawyer is one of those occupations where any sort of language barrier whatsoever, even a small one, could be disastrous. I don't know how many foreign lawyers there are in Japan -- probably not many. If it's like some other occupations, they will require you to graduate from a Japanese law school.
Tell me what to do with my life :) - Evil_Dragon - 2010-01-23
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%96%E5%9B%BD%E6%B3%95%E4%BA%8B%E5%8B%99%E5%BC%81%E8%AD%B7%E5%A3%AB
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attorney_at_foreign_law
Well, at least it's not impossible.
Tell me what to do with my life :) - yudantaiteki - 2010-01-23
Although according to the Bengoshi article on wikipedia, it's currently impossible to become a full practicing attorney in Japan the same as a native Japanese could.
Tell me what to do with my life :) - Evil_Dragon - 2010-01-23
yudantaiteki Wrote:Although according to the Bengoshi article on wikipedia, it's currently impossible to become a full practicing attorney in Japan the same as a native Japanese could.There's about 236 people in Japan who partially disagree!
But yeah, it's probably a bad idea.
![[Image: phoenixsheepisha.gif]](http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5130/phoenixsheepisha.gif)
Tell me what to do with my life :) - yudantaiteki - 2010-01-23
Evil_Dragon Wrote:Those 236 people have a special restricted status and can't do some of the things that "real" lawyers can. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be a fulfilling and worthwhile career, but it is limited.yudantaiteki Wrote:Although according to the Bengoshi article on wikipedia, it's currently impossible to become a full practicing attorney in Japan the same as a native Japanese could.There's about 236 people in Japan who partially disagree!
Tell me what to do with my life :) - igordesu - 2010-01-23
Whew! Thanks for all the responses guys! Let's get started.
@MatthewMuller:
Thank you very much for sharing your experiences. It's always helpful to take advice from people who have the advantage of retrospect.
@epsilondelta:
Thanks for your input. I should first say that I actually have been to Japan. Granted, it was only for a 16 day home-stay type thing, but I still got a pretty decent taste of the culture. I realize that moving to another country is a HUGE deal, so I will definitely be sure to do as much planning as I can to make sure that I have something to fall back here in the States in case the whole thing doesn't work out. Also, don't worry. I'm not trying to gain "fulfillment" in my life from Japan. There are other things that are far more important to me in life, but that I can do wherever I go. It's just that I think I'd like a different cultural setting to do the things that I want to do in life.
@yudantaiteki:
What you said about it being "currently impossible to become a full practicing attorney in Japan the same as a native Japanese could" isn't really true. Here's the excerpt from the Bengoshi article that you're referring to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengoshi : "For the 2006 bar examination, a law school requirement was also instituted. All attorneys must now complete a two-year or three-year graduate program, and are limited to taking the examination three times within five years after graduation. Those who have not graduated from law school may take the bar examination after passing a preliminary qualifying examination.
Previously, attorneys qualified in foreign countries could become attorneys at law in Japan with special permission from the Supreme Court. These individuals were referred to as “quasi-members” (準会員, junkaiin?) of the bar. This system was halted following World War II, and only five quasi-members are still in practice today; they were replaced by a separate qualification, attorney at foreign law (gaikokuhō jimu bengoshi) in 1985. In addition to the quasi-members, attorneys in Okinawa who had been admitted as U.S. attorneys were admitted as Japanese attorneys following the repatriation of Okinawa in 1972: thirteen grandfathered Okinawa attorneys are still in practice as of April 1, 2005."
What this article actually seems to be saying is that attorneys that are qualified to practice in other countries and went to law school in other countries can only become full-fledged "Bengoshi" if they gain special permission from the supreme court. There is nothing in here stating that foreigners are unable to become Bengoshi the traditional way by going to Japanese law school and passing the Japanese Bar exam.
On the other hand, after a bit of googling, it seems as though a ridiculously low number of even Japanese people are able to pass the Japanese Bar exam. Seems like quite a challenge, but....maybe it'd be worth it. Any thoughts?
BTW. I absolutely LOVE the Phoenix Wright Ace Attorney games!
Tell me what to do with my life :) - jajaaan - 2010-01-23
epsilondelta Wrote:Somewhat relatedly, while the place you live in definitely matters and makes a difference for your happiness, I don't think you can expect it to actually fulfill you in life (and it kinda sounds like you're trying to get that from living in Japan). In other words, it's not a substitute for things like a fulfilling job, relationship, or whatever it is that people think of as "major goals".Rather than "somewhat relatedly," I would call this the most important element. I have lived throughout the United States and there are some places I could, quite literally, live while working for minimum wage the rest of my life (parts of Colorado, Arizona, Utah and California); however, while I was working in jobs that I actually liked doing, I was less dependent on the scenery to do the work of making me happy because in my head I was already happy. Sure, it's shitty to work 9-5 in some town I don't like, but I could pursue a career I enjoy in almost any town in the world. The problem for a long time was figuring out what that career was.
Tell me what to do with my life :) - igordesu - 2010-01-23
Check this out. Proof that it really CAN be done by gaijin:
http://www.japanprobe.com/2008/11/28/former-alt-to-become-lawyer-in-japan/
Tell me what to do with my life :) - Evil_Dragon - 2010-01-23
yudantaiteki Wrote:Those 236 people have a special restricted status and can't do some of the things that "real" lawyers can. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be a fulfilling and worthwhile career, but it is limited.That would be my least concern. But law does not seem to be a very good option for those who want to work in Japan judging by the small number.
If you would like to study law though, I'd say go for it. Just don't suppose you'll land a job in Japan. Being an attorney in the US can't possibly be as bad as John Grisham wants us to believe after all.
Tell me what to do with my life :) - bodhisamaya - 2010-01-23
matthewmuller Wrote:Hey Igor,I live in 中宮団地 about a ten minute walk from 関西外国語大学!
My own experience: I Studied for a year in Japan while still in college via an exchange program, was able to get credits and still graduate if 4 years, for about the same cost as a year in the states. I went to Kansai Gaidai and loved it.
A wonderful location on the border of Osaka and Kyoto prefectures with Nara just over the mountain to the east.
I didn't go to a university in Japan but I truly wish I would have been able to. I think it would be the mistake of a lifetime not to enroll for at least a year here if that is a possibility.
Tell me what to do with my life :) - Thora - 2010-01-23
Igor, you can work as a lawyer in Japan. You practice the law of the jurisdiction(s) you are called in though. Even if you register as a gaiben, you still are limited to practising the law of your jurisdictions. It means you don't have to be employed by a firm, but many still are. Without registering as a gaiben, you work as a lawyer employed by a firm. The special court permission category only applied to those lawyers grandfathered around WW2. The remaining guys are in their 80s now.
Most international corporate work is governed by NY or UK law, so there's plenty of demand for foreign lawyers in Japan. Not all foreign lawyers working in Japan speak Japanese. Some are there for their particular expertise. But it obviously helps if you speak Japanese and some advertised positions require it. In a competitive profession, being able to work in another language can help.
It used to be difficult to create a law firm with both foreign lawyer and Japanese lawyer partners. So some firms entered into joint venture type arrangements. Some of those restrictions have recently been removed.
I wouldn't bother trying to become a Japanese lawyer. The old exam to become a Japanese lawyer had a pass rate of about 1% and there were very few lawyers in Japan. There were no law schools. Instead they had to attend a 2-year training institute. They rehauled the system in the last few years. Law schools were created (ie graduate school) and the bar exam was revised (higher pass rate). This created a need for more profs a few years ago, and some foreign lawyers went over to teach. Japan will be producing a more lawyers now with training more similar to what exists elsewhere.
Law was previously an undergraduate degree major. Many law grads from good undergraduate schools were part of the 99% who didn't pass the test. They aren't technically lawyers, but they do non-litigation work related to law. So the stats regarding the low number of lawyers in Japan are a bit misleading.
You don't have to live in Japan forever. There's need for Japanese speaking lawyers in the States and elsewhere. You don't have to work in a firm, but it opens doors to a lot of opportunities. And you don't have to study law in NY, but you should take the NY bar if you want to work in Japan. The economy has adversely affected the legal job market in the States, but things might improve by the time you graduate. Hope that answers some of your questions.
Tell me what to do with my life :) - igordesu - 2010-01-23
Wow, thanks for that! That was....incredibly helpful.
It's cool to know that I don't have to go the route of going to Law School in Japan. Though that would be cool, I'm not sure how realistic that would be. Like you said, maybe it would be good to just study law here in the states, pass the NY bar, and then try and land a job in Japan.
Either way, I'll probably take a year or two off before I go to law school (if at all) and perhaps try and teach English in Japan for a year or two to "test the waters." Maybe I'll be able to pull something off like that guy in that article that I posted up there and get accepted to a Japanese Law school. If not, I'll always be able to return here to the US and go to law school.
Hmm....this has given me a lot to think about. Thank you for your advice!
Tell me what to do with my life :) - Viking101 - 2010-01-23
I go to a top law school (i.e. Yale-Harvard-Stanford), and, even from here, it is incredibly hard to break into the Japanese market. A handful of firms recruit at our school for their Japanese offices, but they are all extremely selective. And this route is probably the easiest way to get into Japan. In general, only U.S. firms with Japanese offices are willing to hire Americans. They need us for the big deals that go down with American companies. Small law firms are not going to want you, so without a top degree and fluency in Japanese, you won't find a job in Japan. People will cite exceptions, but don't count on being a special flower.
To put things in perspective, I go to a top school and have a job lined up at a Vault 10 firm, but I know that if I had tried to land a job in Japan, I wouldn't have found one.
Almost all work is transactional, so if you want litigation, you won't find it at American firms in Japan. Also, Japan is a very insular market. If you did want to come back to America at some point, your skillset would be much less useful than someone who worked in Hong Kong, London, or some other international city.
My advice is don't go to law school unless you get into a top 10 school. Even at schools like Georgetown, half the class did not land BigLaw. Definitely do not go to law school with the expectation you will land a job in Japan. Schools inflate hiring statistics and salaries, so don't rely on the puffed up USNews numbers.
If you have any questions about applying to law school, or law school in general, I'd be happy to answer them for you. My post probably sounds very dour, but too many people go to law school because law school seems like a versatile degree. To call this wrong is an understatement.
Websites to read: http://www.abovethelaw.com (Take a look at all the layoffs that happened over the past year. It isn't pretty.)
http://www.autoadmit.com (If you wade through some of the vulgar posts, this is a pretty realistic assessment of the legal market)
Tell me what to do with my life :) - igordesu - 2010-01-23
Dude. Reading that was such a downer......but excellent for putting everything into perspective. Thank you very much
Edit: Wait, so do you mean that it's incredibly difficult specifically to break into the Japanese market as a Gaiben/Attorney at foreign Law after you've gone to an American Law school and passed the Bar somewhere here in America? If that's so, do you think it would be easier to go to a Japanese law school and pass the Japanese Bar, and then just become a normal bengoshi/attorney at law?
Tell me what to do with my life :) - nest0r - 2010-01-24
@Thora Are you familiar with D. Johnson's "The Japanese Way of Justice" book? Some clever amazing person posted a copy at AAAARG but hasn't--so I imagine--hasn't read it yet.
Tell me what to do with my life :) - igordesu - 2010-01-24
An interesting article on Debito's site about the old vs. new Bar exam system in Japan:
http://www.debito.org/?p=101
Tell me what to do with my life :) - nest0r - 2010-01-24
igordesu Wrote:An interesting article on Debito's site about the old vs. new Bar exam system in Japan:I think some of the folks at Mutantfrog are lawyers in Japan, might want to browse their site: http://www.mutantfrog.com/
http://www.debito.org/?p=101
Such as: http://www.mutantfrog.com/2010/01/08/the-legal-profession-must-be-saved-from-itself/
Tell me what to do with my life :) - Viking101 - 2010-01-24
I only know about breaking into the Japanese market from an American school. I really don't know anything about earning a law degree in Japan. I imagine if your Japanese skills are good enough to earn a law degree there, you would actually have an advantage in the job market because you speak English, too. However, just to reiterate I know nothing about actually earning a degree in Japan.
There's about a dozen major U.S. / London firms in Tokyo: Skadden Arps, Morrison Foerster, Paul Weiss, Allen & Overy, Baker & McKenzie, Bingham McCutcheon, Clifford & Chance, Foley & Lardner, Freshfields, and some others I can't think of right now.
If you really want to work in Tokyo, e-mail some associates that work at these firms and ask them how to break into the market. At worst, they'll ignore you, but I imagine many will be willing to offer candid advice.
If you do decide to go to law school, Anna Ivey's book on applying is invaluable. http://www.amazon.com/Ivey-Guide-Law-School-Admissions/dp/0156029790/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
Tell me what to do with my life :) - Womacks23 - 2010-01-24
There are specialist law schools that have programs teaching Asian regional law where you can specialize in Japanese law. University of Hawaii is one.
Tell me what to do with my life :) - igordesu - 2010-01-24
Wow. Once again, thanks for the advice guys. This really means a lot to me. You've given me a lot to think about.
I just thought of something else that I could do in case the whole "law school in japan" thing doesn't go through as planned. Right now I deliver pizzas for Pizza Hut part time while going to college. I also know that Pizza Hut has restaurants in Japan. So like...if I stick with this job, after I graduate college and once I'm fluent in Japanese, I can be like "hey, transfer me to JAPAN." LOL....that's a long shot....but maybe it'd work.
Tell me what to do with my life :) - Womacks23 - 2010-01-24
Hahahaha
no, it won't (most likely)
Tell me what to do with my life :) - yudantaiteki - 2010-01-24
You need a visa to live and work in Japan legally, and you're never going to get a visa to work at pizza hut. (The visa has to be for a specific job and sponsored by someone, and if you quit that job the visa quickly becomes invalid as well.)
The exception to this is if you marry a Japanese person; then you can get a permanent resident status and do whatever job you want, including pizza hut.