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Are sentences really necessary for certain terminologies? - Haych - 2010-01-17
I think that the sentences idea is not a perfect one to begin with because it is a passive style of learning. Just like you would not try to read your entire math textbook before an exam to study, you should not be so indoctrinated to the 10000 sentences method that you arent open to new techniques. The sentences method is essentially just reading, and until you start trying to generate your own sentences, you probably wont pick up on the subtle points of usage involved with the words you are reading anyway. However, having said that, the first step is always to be able to remember a word, and if you rembember it better using a sentence with the word in context or a production vocab card, so be it. Personally, I do like vocab cards because I believe there is something to be said for minimization of information involved with your cards.
Are sentences really necessary for certain terminologies? - yudantaiteki - 2010-01-17
magamo Wrote:Ah, thanks. And sorry, yudantaiteki. I was thinking something like native speakers don't speak a language in real life without taking context into account. I meant "Native speakers don't choose words/phrases because grammar/explanations tell them it's ok" by "Native speakers don't speak like that." So the point was that the hypothetical student in the extreme case I was talking about right before the quoted sentence would have a harder time finding "i+1" in context poor materials because to him an "i+1" sentence doesn't mean an example that teaches a grammar point he doesn't know. Obviously I suck at getting my point across...Ah, OK, I see what you mean -- I think because you are a native speaker, when you say something against textbooks like that (even unintentionally) it will carry a great weight of authority, especially since many people already are prejudiced against textbooks. That may be why my response seemed a bit strong, but I apologize for that.
Are sentences really necessary for certain terminologies? - Squintox - 2010-01-17
I think a sentence is important. Because usually, the word tends to come up with another word in the sentence. Like how "a cold" (the disease), and "to catch" are likely to show up in the sentence, "Did you catch a cold?".
So, cosmic dust can usually end up in the same sentence as "space particles", or simple "space". That way when you see the word IRL you'll understand the rest of the sentence as well.
But eh, I wouldn't say it's necessary, you have to remember that there are people out there that used only vocab. flashcards to fluency. But there's no doubt that sentence cards help.
Are sentences really necessary for certain terminologies? - wildweathel - 2010-01-17
Haych Wrote:I think that the sentences idea is not a perfect one to begin with because it is a passive style of learning.Agreed: the problem with sentence review is the part you're trying to
Quote:The sentences method is essentially just reading, and until you start trying to generate your own sentences, you probably wont pick up on the subtle points of usageえ？悪いけど、全然分からない。多いものを読むことはいい方法なのが確かだ。見当は確かではない。経験がなくて、見当しかできないね？細かなポイントが一番当てにくいだろう。だから、読まないと正しい語法を習わない。
Proficiency only comes from imitation--which absolutely requires something to imitate. You have to read before you can produce something that makes sense. (For that reason, I'm not sure at all that the above makes any sense. I've not yet read enough arguments in Japanese to know if it's even slightly coherent. I'm sure what it means and I think it follows the rules, but that doesn't prove anything.)
Quote:Personally, I do like vocab cards because I believe there is something to be said for minimization of information involved with your cards.Yes, simple cards are easier to memorize. The problem comes from how much you can simplify a sentence without losing important collocations.
Are sentences really necessary for certain terminologies? - mirina - 2010-01-17
Interesting answers on all sides.
zer0range Wrote:I'm certain that it's not necessary, however, why wouldn't you put a sentence in?It's not really the same amount of effort, though. Not only does it take a longer time to create the card, in case I have to paste definitions for multiple words, but reviewing the card takes longer, even if by only a second or two, the latter of which adds up over time. This is especially the case for cards that contain highly technical sentences, and therefore use more complicated grammar or vocabulary.
Presumably, it's the same amount of effort, and you will pick up words that tend to go with the target words.
magamo Wrote:When scientific terms are used in text/speech for non-experts, the difference between literal translation and natural Japanese becomes larger for obvious reasons. It's like light travels faster than sound in English, but in Japanese 光は音よりも早く伝わる, i.e., light reaches the destination faster than sound in Japanese. Heat, electricity, etc. also collocate with 伝わる. They are not "conducted." Collocations and such are affected by everyday language to a larger extent, and definitions can be different than in strictly scientific context.You make a good point I didn't ever consider: that even certain terminologies are expressed differently in Japanese than in English.
Things get worse in non-scientific context. You just can't expect translation would work. For example, you can learn a language by osmosis in English, but 言語を浸透によって学ぶ sounds so unnatural it doesn't make any sense. In Japanese you say, "自然に吸収する." It doesn't matter if "osmosis" is a scientific word.
magamo Wrote:Sheliosama Wrote:Magamo is right but what difference does it make if you srs that single word then just read heaps later on?Apparently it depends on your learning method. The OP said,
mirina Wrote:Do I really need a sentence to help me remember how to use this word?If he's relying heavily on SRS software
Quote:to learn word usage, collocation, and whatnot, probably he needs at least a few sentences that illustrate how those words work. You would need a huge pile of cards to do that, but maybe it works for some people. If he was doing a sentence picking a la AJATT, he would only mine very very interesting ones that he really likes from the bottom of his heart. So this kind of question wouldn't come up in the first place, i.e., whether scientific or not wouldn't matter when an hardcore AJATTer puts a sentence into an SRS. The only deciding factor would be whether he really wants to remember the sentence.My use of the SRS is only to ensure that I do not forget words I've already seen; not so that I learn them.
Essentially, to spell out my method of learning/study: I find a long, vocabulary dense article and write out the entire page by hand. The article I was just reading was on 銀河, for example. Because the article consistently reuses words such as 恒星、天の川、変光星、星間、天体、etc, these terms become easy to recall because I have now seen them multiple times. However, because next week I'm going to be reading articles on an entirely different subject, I want to put certain terms in the SRS that I won't forget--specifically those that I know and like to read about already in English. But that doesn't mean I'm never going to read astronomy articles again. The SRS, however, will keep these words fresh in my mind, so that when I do read about astronomy, I won't have to go back to the dictionary because I forgot a lot of vocabulary terms.
I don't see the point of SRSing a textbook on Japanese, unless it's a textbook written in Japanese and you're using it to remember grammar terminology (like 助詞、名詞、etc) or how to express yourself when talking about grammar. Since I'm not Japanese, I'm not sure how natural textbook Japanese sounds, but I know English sentences in textbooks sound ridiculous, unnatural or contrived.
Are sentences really necessary for certain terminologies? - JimmySeal - 2010-01-17
mirina Wrote:It's not really the same amount of effort, though. Not only does it take a longer time to create the card, in case I have to paste definitions for multiple words, but reviewing the card takes longer, even if by only a second or two, the latter of which adds up over time. This is especially the case for cards that contain highly technical sentences, and therefore use more complicated grammar or vocabulary.It doesn't have to be all or nothing. There's no need to adhere slavishly to Khatz's idea of explicating every piece of a sentence. If your real objective is to just learn 星間塵, then you can type the sentence, put an underline under that one word, and then do whatever it takes to design your card around learning that one word. Seeing it in a full sentence (even one that contains words you're unconfident about) will make it easier to remember.
Are sentences really necessary for certain terminologies? - magamo - 2010-01-17
mirina Wrote:SheSorry. I think I knew that...
mirina Wrote:My use of the SRS is only to ensure that I do not forget words I've already seen; not so that I learn them.Then, if I were you, I'd put a sentence that contains the target noun and surrounding sentences so it would remind me of the gist of the article, what kind of paragraph the word appeared in, the author's tone when s/he used it, etc. And probably I'd put another sentence for the word from the same article and/or J-J definitions/example sentences on the back of the card, though I'd just skim through them. This way you will be reminded of the meaning and impression you got from the word, so you don't need to put a translation on the card. Also, when I memorize a term bilingually, somehow I end up associating the meaning etc. with situations/contexts/sentences where I learned the equivalent term in my mother tongue, which doesn't bode well.
Essentially, to spell out my method of learning/study: I find a long, vocabulary dense article and write out the entire page by hand. The article I was just reading was on 銀河, for example. Because the article consistently reuses words such as 恒星、天の川、変光星、星間、天体、etc, these terms become easy to recall because I have now seen them multiple times. However, because next week I'm going to be reading articles on an entirely different subject, I want to put certain terms in the SRS that I won't forget--specifically those that I know and like to read about already in English. But that doesn't mean I'm never going to read astronomy articles again. The SRS, however, will keep these words fresh in my mind, so that when I do read about astronomy, I won't have to go back to the dictionary because I forgot a lot of vocabulary terms.
But if you can't read Japanese fast yet, it might be too much. If this slows down reviews too much or makes SRSing boring, I'd delete them and wait until I come across the same words in a more interesting article. You may not be able to afford that if you're studying for a standardized test and such, but probably boredom is the price you have to pay when you study using materials that you think you "should" read/watch/listen to.
If you don't want to look up the same word again in a dictionary or put Japanese text longer than a sentence, maybe simple bilingual cards work as long as you keep reading/listening to native material. But I don't know if it's worth it. I'd rather look up the same word again than review the same bilingual card again. I guess if looking up the same word in an online/electronic dictionary saps your motivation quickly, reviewing cards that look like a dictionary entry would do too for the exact same reason. It doesn't seem to me that reading dictionary entries/textbook sentences/whatever using Anki would magically wipe out the inevitable boredom.
Anyway, vocabulary learning gets easier and easier as your passive vocabulary grows. So it's not that big of a deal, I think.