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Niwasaburou's だけ - Printable Version

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Niwasaburou's だけ - IceCream - 2010-01-15

gone Sad but fortunately magamo quoted me. refer below...

Niwasaburou's だけ - Tobberoth - 2010-01-15

Don't know if I'm understanding it all correctly either, but it seems to me that there's a bit more important stuff to say about だけに which isn't made overly clear. If I'm understanding correctly, in AだけにB, A has to be a special condition and B has to be an opinion (judgement) which follows naturally because of the special condition in A. I don't think this can be used if B is anything but a subjective opinion, such as a fact.

As for dakeatte, it does indeed seem like the main point here is that there is a common preconception about somethings value, strength or factors like that, and the speaker is expressing that it is true. Therefor, I don't think this construct is limited to opinions, but I'm not sure.

Niwasaburou's だけ - magamo - 2010-01-15

I didn't compare the icecreamified version and the original text, but there seem to be some minor errors:
IceCream Wrote:1. だけだ
だけ has the meaning everyone knows it does. Niwasaburou calls it "outside of X isn't there". (only)

だけで can be used to create a contrasting statement with the last one. It's like saying, "it's X, but X doesn't imply Y like you might be thinking". Or, "despite X, Y".
* 漢字がいくつかわからないだけで、内容は全部わかりました。 There's so many kanji he doesn't
understand... despite that, he understood everything in there.
This だけで indicates that X in Xだけで is the only exception. So the example sentence means something like "There were several unfamiliar kanji, but I think I understand everything in the book," i.e., the minor, obscure kanji are the only exceptions to わかる. Usually the second clause is true or almost true. In this case it's 内容は全部わかりました, and this is 100% true because the speaker was able to guess what the author meant.

You can use it without a second clause, e.g., でもあの子可愛いだけじゃん。(Sure she has a pretty face, but that's it. (Implying everything else is mediocre at best, i.e., her appearance is the only exception to her mediocrity.))

IceCream Wrote:However, だけで doesn't have to be used with a contrasting statement. With a non-contrasting second half, it seems to mean more like "only if"
* あいさつがちょっとあるだけで、あとは気楽な会になるだろう。 Only if the あいさつ goes well, the meeting will be comfortable afterwards, i think.
This is also the same type of だけで, but probably this is meant to illustrate that you can use your own opinion/guess as a second clause. Maybe the context of the example sentence is that the listener is kind of nervous because he doesn't like formal parties and that the speaker is guessing the only formal things he has to do is greet others and introduce himself.

IceCream Wrote:2. ーだけ　－

This form is used for saying "to the extent of".
*　　カバンに入るだけ詰め込んだ。 to the extent i filled my bag it's stuffed.
*　　欲しいだけあげるよ。 to the extent you want it, i'l give it you.
*　　要るだけ持っていっていいよ。 to the extent it's needed, it's ok to take it.
This is kind of "as much as X" as in "He crammed as much stuff as he could into his bag." The second sentence means "I'll give you as much as you want." The だけ in the third sentence is the same.

IceCream Wrote:When a verb + みよう form is added to the end, it means "at least"
* 会うだけ会ってみてください。 At least try meeting with them
*　 どんなものか、見るだけ見てみよう。 At least try looking at whatever it is
*　 話を聞くだけ聞いてみよう。 At least try listening to what they're saying
This だけ + みよう combo means "It might be a waste of time/useless/whatever, but I'll try it and see what happens. If it doesn't work well, (or boring etc.,) I'll just quit quickly." You can use it as a request/command as in the first example to mean "Please be it-might-not-be-worth-it-but-I'll-try-it," i.e., "I know you don't want to do that/it sounds strange, but could you at least try it? It's ok to quit if you don't like it." The second and third sentences are ambiguous in that they can be either "I'll do X" or "Let's do X."

IceCream Wrote:When the verb before the だけ is potential, and the みよう form is the final verb, it means, "as much"
* やれるだけ／できるだけ（のことを）やってみろよ。 Try and do it as much as you can
* 言いたいだけ言えばいいさ。 It's better if you say as much as you want to.
A typical situation where the first sentence is used is when someone is about to give in or hesitates to do something. You say, "やれるだけやってみろよ。" to mean "Don't give up. You can do better than that," "What are you waiting for? Just give your best shot," "Do it, or you gain nothing," etc.

Another situation is when a very confident guy provokes his opponent in a match and says, "Show me what you got."

The second example literally means "Criticize/whine as much as you want to. I don't care." Usually it implies that the speaker is kind of annoyed not by what the other guy is saying, but by the fact that he doesn't shut up.

IceCream Wrote:The same form of sentence can be made as VerbばVerbほど。 The meanings are similar. However, it has a slightly different nuance, and therefore slightly different use conditions.
* 金があればあるだけ使ってしまう。（その分全部）　「あっただけ」も可
*　金があればあるほど使ってしまう。（「どんなに多くても」多さを強調）
the だけ version gives you roughly: to the extent i have money, i spend it all.
the ほど version gives you roughly: the more money i have, the more i spend.
A person who spends all the money he gets might be poor like some stupid Americans having huge credit card debut. But the latter sentence sounds like the person doesn't save money but can afford it. If the former person was given $1,000,000,000, he wouldn't be able to use it. But the latter person might spend it in a day to buy a company or something.

In short, the former means "all" and the latter is "no ceiling."

IceCream Wrote:3. だけに：

AだけにB is kind of like からこそ。 The idea is that B follows naturally as a matter of course from A.
* 話が急に決まっただけに、準備が大変だ。
Especially because the decision was made in a hurry, the preparations were difficult.
* 最重要の課題であるだけに、慎重な対応が必要だ。
Especially because this is a most important topic, it is necessary to deal with it with
the utmost discretion.

When the noun is repeated, it means that that particular noun is an extra special one.
* この映画は、主役が主役だけに大当たり間違いなしだ。
In this film, the leading actor is special, so naturally, it'll be a big hit without doubt.
This XだけにY is emphasizing the reason (= X) the speaker thinks Y. It's kind of like "I think Y. And X is THE reason." I think you have to come up with a good translation on a case-by-case basis and use tone of voice to carry the same idea, though translation is always like that. For example, if you just talked about the protagonist of the movie and how awesome he is, you can just say, "This is gonna be a blockbuster movie." If it's a sentence right before a link to the preview of the movie on your blog, it might be something like "Look who the heroine is. This movie will be a big hit." Both mean pretty much the same thing as この映画は、主役が主役だけに大当たり間違いなしだ.

IceCream Wrote:だけあって：

だけあって is similar to だけに. However, it has more of a nuance of B fullfiling a prediction that has a high chance of being fullfilled (rather than following as a matter of course). It's often used with さすが・さすがに to emphasise this.
* さすが才能のある作家が長い年月をかけただけあって、いい作品だ。
as you'd expect, a talented author that writes for a long time makes good works. (would be said about a particular author).
This use of だけあって is usually followed by a clause with a positive meaning, i.e., the speaker had high hopes and expected they'd succeed etc., and they lived up to the expectation. An example where the second clause has a negative sense is "東大の入試問題だけあって、先生も解けなかった。(It was taken from an entrance exam of Tokyo University, and sure enough even my tutor got the wrong answer.)" In this case, the question that is supposed to be extremely difficult lived up to the expectation in a sense.

Here's an illustrative example of だけに vs. だけあって:

あの映画、予告編がめちゃくちゃすごかっただけに、実際映画館で観たときの期待はずれ感もすごかった。
(The movie trailer was awesome)
-> a typical second clause is like "I was disappointed when I watched the movie."

あの映画、予告編がめちゃくちゃすごかっただけあって、公開初日の売り上げ記録を破った。
(The movie trailer was awesome)
-> a typical second clause is like "the box office revenue broke the record."

The "breaking the record" kind of clause would also work with だけに because it's kind of natural to expect so. But the "I'm disappointed" wouldn't follow だけあって. If you felt like the trailer lied to you and still want to use だけあって, it'd be like "...だけあって、一日目の興行成績はよかった。でも実際観てみるとつまらない映画だったし、興行収入記録は破れないだろう。(, so the revenue in the opening day was good. But I was disappointed by the movie when I watched it, and I don't think it would break the box office revenue record."

Niwasaburou's だけ - pm215 - 2010-01-15

IceCream Wrote:This form is used for saying "to the extent of".
*　　カバンに入るだけ詰め込んだ。 to the extent i filled my bag it's stuffed.
*　　欲しいだけあげるよ。 to the extent you want it, i'l give it you.
*　　要るだけ持っていっていいよ。 to the extent it's needed, it's ok to take it.
...except that of course 'to the extent of' isn't really English :-) "I'll give you as much as you want", "Take as much as you need" &c.

Niwasaburou's だけ - mirina - 2010-01-15

pm215 Wrote:...except that of course 'to the extent of' isn't really English :-)
"To the extent of what's needed"?

Granted, that's just one example...

I think we need to clone Magamo's brain and then hook it up to a computer so that it answers any questions we have the moment we ask them. Perhaps even before we ask them. I'm not exactly sure how it will manage to type, though.

Niwasaburou's だけ - liosama - 2010-01-15

Thanks Smile

Niwasaburou's だけ - pm215 - 2010-01-15

IceCream Wrote:@pm: you totally know what i mean ;p
I try not to take potshots at other peoples' explanations/translations, because I know my own are usually not anything to write home about, but in this case I really wasn't entirely sure whether you meant the right thing...

(I wouldn't have bothered posting it at all if I'd noticed that magamo made the same point while I was composing my reply.)