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+--- Thread: What you reading? (/thread-466.html)
What you reading? - JimmySeal - 2007-04-10
dingomick Wrote:But wait! Manga characters (in reality based manga) are fully realized Japanese individuals who speak in the exact same ways actual Japanese speak.This is actually far from the truth. If one goes around calling himself おれ and calling other people お前 all the time, one runs the risk of receiving some very dirty looks.
What you reading? - synewave - 2007-04-10
JimmySeal Wrote:it's important to diversify.JimmySeal giving non-controvertial advice? Surely not
JimmySeal Wrote:It really depends on one's own reality as to where the "truth" lies. I personally don't go around calling myself おれ and calling other people お前 all the time. However as I work(?) at a JHS, I can tell you that that is how the kids go around speaking. Admittedly they don't often direct their お前s at their teachers but they certainly do refer to themselves as おれ when talking with their teachers.dingomick Wrote:But wait! Manga characters (in reality based manga) are fully realized Japanese individuals who speak in the exact same ways actual Japanese speak.This is actually far from the truth. If one goes around calling himself おれ and calling other people お前 all the time, one runs the risk of receiving some very dirty looks.
What you reading? - JimmySeal - 2007-04-10
synewave Wrote:However as I work(?) at a JHS, I can tell you that that is how the kids go around speaking. Admittedly they don't often direct their お前s at their teachers but they certainly do refer to themselves as おれ when talking with their teachers.Well I can't dispute you there, but I think a lot of that is the result of Japanese children actually learning to speak by reading manga all the time. A lot of Japanese adults are very upset that their language seems to be in the process of a bastardization among the younger generation. It's definitely not correct manners to talk to teachers in the plain form and call oneself おれ when speaking to them (or to peers really, for that matter), but they do it. Children these days also refer to their parents using honorifics (お父さん, お母さん) when talking to people outside their family, which is also a big no-no, but I have a feeling it's a mixture of not bothering to speak correctly and just plain not knowing what's right because nobody bothers to teach them anymore.
So in conclusion, I think it's important for non-Japanese adults to know how to not speak like these brats.
What you reading? - dingomick - 2007-04-10
If you choose the correct manga, an easy enough task, you won't need to exercise much discretion at all about what you learn from manga. Like I've already said several times, I tend towards school themed reality based manga. The characters reflect true and proper Japanese, including differences in vocabulary/keigo when referring to their teachers and parents, or to their friends.
As JimmySeal has said elsewhere, it should be obvious to the reader from the clues what the words mean and how they're used. =) It's up to us to then apply them correctly knowing from the manga when they're appropriate or not.
This is all of course in balance with a variety of other reading sources as said before.
What you reading? - JimmySeal - 2007-04-10
Quote:Like I've already said several times, I tend towards school themed reality based manga.I saw you say it, but I maintain my claim that even if some genres are less fantastical than others, almost all manga is an exaggeration of the way people actually speak and it's important to bear that in mind.
Quote:As JimmySeal has said elsewhere, it should be obvious to the reader from the clues what the words mean and how they're used.I don't remember saying anywhere that words' meanings and usages are obvious, but I do believe that their meaning and usage, within the context that they appear can be deduced from the clues. So someone who reads exclusively manga all the time can learn to very competently speak bombastic and dramatic Japanese and use it just like a comic book character would.
I'm currently reading a book on the history of Rome and I have no doubt that if I spoke in the same manner as the text in this book (literary expressions and plain form at the end of my sentences), people would think I'm very strange.
Someone who reads a wide variety of writing and observes a wide variety of speech will learn to discriminate what type of language is appropriate when, and I don't think we are really in disagreement on this point.
This doesn't quite relate to my point but I was reminded of a little snippet from a source more authoritative than anyone here (myself included of course). The first part isn't really relevant here but is included for completeness:
Quote:These days most Japanese children come to school with some basic knowledge of kana and even some kanji. The competition in life is severe and parents make sure that their children have an initial advantage even at the primary level. Gradually they increase the number of characters they recognize and write. School textbooks are slim volumes which are designed for intensive reading. In order to achieve fluency, students must go well beyond their school texts and undertake a considerable amount of private reading. In this case comic books (manga) do not help; they are written in a language which does not present any hurdles to the children's competence. Those who limit their input to comics finish up with enough competence to read comics but nothing else.
What you reading? - naniwa - 2007-04-10
synewave Wrote:Yeah, they're translated in full.kyotokanji Wrote:if you read to much manga you'll end up sounding like a maga character when you speak.「なんだこりゃ！？」
The book naniwa recommends sounds like it might be worth checking out.
naniwa Wrote:There's more than enough kanji to keep you satisfied as well as a translation and notes on difficult grammar and idioms.Are all the essays translated in full?
On the top half of each page you have the original Japanese text. The bottom half of the page has a rendering in romaji followed by a translation. If the actual meaning of the translation is different from the literal, this is noted and explained.
The facing page contains separate notes which give very detailed explanations on grammar, idioms and other literary devices.
It's difficult, but it's the best thing I've found so far for learning onyomi and kunyomi since I finished RTK 1 several weeks ago. The essays are ordered in their level of difficulty and address various interesting topics in a literary way.
I'm sure manga has its place, but for me "Read Real Japanese" offers more tangible benifits as well as exploring more thought-provoking issues.
What you reading? - dingomick - 2007-04-10
How would you rate the difficulty of Read Real Japanese?
What you reading? - naniwa - 2007-04-10
It's quite difficult. But you can read through it bit by bit, while checking the translation below. It's up to the individual how much they want to actually remember. Personally, I try to remember everything, and while I can't always do this, I am noticing the compounds I learn in other places and I'm adding to my vocabulary.
I'm sure many others have the same experience using manga, but this volume is more to my taste.
What you reading? - synewave - 2007-04-10
Always like a bit of banter with JimmySeal
JimmySeal Wrote:I maintain my claim that even if some genres are less fantastical than others, almost all manga is an exaggeration of the way people actually speak and it's important to bear that in mind.I see what you are saying but as dingomick is alluding to, there is plenty of non-fantastical manga. But is the point of reading a particular text to necessarily reproduce it in one's own speech? (see JimmySeal quote below)
Having an interest in what one reads is the main thing as far as I'm concerned. We agree on that, don't we?
JimmySeal Wrote:I'm currently reading a book on the history of Rome and I have no doubt that if I spoke in the same manner as the text in this book (literary expressions and plain form at the end of my sentences), people would think I'm very strange.As far as best practice goes, this seems logical. The wider your sources, the more complete your Japanese should hopefully become.
Someone who reads a wide variety of writing and observes a wide variety of speech will learn to discriminate what type of language is appropriate when, and I don't think we are really in disagreement on this point.
Quote:Those who limit their input to comics finish up with enough competence to read comics but nothing else.I would definitely disagree, regardless of how authoritative the source, with this as far as it applies to gaijin learning Japanese. From reading manga, I'm being exposed to vocab, kanji compounds, kanji readings and getting more of a feel for the language.
Apart from the "photon torpedos", I can't think of all that much language that is exclusive to manga. Well there probably is plenty but my point is that tons of the language used in manga is pretty standard stuff that I'm sure is bound to appear in other texts.
Japanese manga with all it's perceived linguistic flaws is something unique to Japan. And, for me anyway, being able to enjoy manga is an end in itself. I'm certainly still way off where I want to be in terms of what manga I can actually comprehend enough of satisfactorily.
After manga for a while, I think it'll make reading novels (without a dictionary) possible (the stuff I want to read is a bit beyond me just now).
The point I hope I've made is that enjoyment of what one reads is paramount whether it be manga or Roman history.
Keep reading...
EDIT:
naniwa Wrote:I'm sure many others have the same experience using manga, but this volume is more to my taste.I agree totally...we should all go for what appeals to us. Thanks for the feedback about the essays you're reading. The book sounds like a really good format.
What you reading? - nyquil - 2007-04-10
I just wanted to add another recommendation for Chibimarukochan. I haven't finished RTK1 yet, but reading the different books in that series will be one of my ways to practice reading once I have. I used to watch the TV series when I was in Japan and even though I needed a lot of help to understand what was happening I really liked it. For people who want to check it out there is a movie with the same character which can be found online with english subtitles. Once you have read the manga you can also watch the anime (that will be my strategy to train listening). Otherwise I'm not a huge manga fan (not that i don't like the genre, I just know nothing about it). I think as soon as I can I will try to switch to reading novels, since this is partly how I learnt english and I think it is a great way to gain exposure to a wide lexical range. I'll be happy to learn what novels others have read that are not too difficult for a beginner.
What you reading? - dingomick - 2007-04-10
Some more thoughts:
Again, if you're selective about your manga, you can find plenty that is not an exaggeration of Japanese. Manga artists are trying to recreate as convincing a story as possible which necessitates normal speech. What I call "school manga" are the epitome of this. The characters may have concentrated experiences (going from klutz to team captain, dork to school stud, etc. all in ~15 books), but the language is dead on natural. I simply can't imagine any language "exclusive" to manga except the 'fantastically' fictional.
Manga is a unique written form that is more akin to obsessively detailed storyboards than anything else. Novels simply can't replace it, nor can they reproduce such natural dialogue since they rely on a narrator to paint the picture. (Unfortunately, someone studying English cannot find such reading material, but can find plenty of fictional TV shows and movies with realistic English). However, as we all agree, manga is one of many bricks in the wall of fluency.
I currently focus on reading manga during my study time because I want to speak better. It is my greatest current need. I'm still at a low enough level that I can't easily chat for a long period in Japanese. When I can't practice speaking with someone, manga is simply the best source of natural speech which I can analyze and imitate, and then use. Others in this thread may be well beyond my ability and thus don't gain as much vocabulary and grammar as they desire from manga, but I'm positive there's still oodles of usage and nuances to glean. Reading novels/non-fiction/newspapers may not improve my speaking, but reading manga improves my speaking and improves my reading of other materials.
What you reading? - woelpad - 2007-04-11
synewave Wrote:My current favourite is Detective Conan. It is so easy to follow even if you don't know every word. The only thing that is beginning to bother me is furigana over nearly every kanji. That said, the stories themselves are really good.I have all Conans up to 45, 47, 52 - 54. The pre-50's all at 105 yen. I've been reading them for 2 years, on the train on the way home, book in one hand, electronic dictionary in the other. People sometimes recognize me as the gaijin reading Conan on the train
Anyway, I can lend them out to you at the Tokyo meet. Just tell me which ones you have or haven't yet. For the diehards, you can sometimes buy half of a series at a further reduced price at Book-Off.
I also read so-nanda, a weekly publication with 5 short stories about everything that kids take an interest in. There are two kinds: science and culture. I buy the culture ones, at 500 yen per number, not really cheap, but with tons of information (and thus vocab) about history, geography, culture and such from a Japanese point of view. Furigana on top.
What you reading? - fiminor - 2007-04-14
People may or may not think this is a crap idea, but something I've tried when learning other languages is reading a translation of a book you already know (but don't mind reading again!). I appreciate this doesn't help much with understanding of culture, but it does cut out the frustration of not being able to follow the plot at least! It's also a bit easier to pick up new vocabulary without quite so constantly referring to a dictionary. I used to be fairly fluent in French but had a break of a few years from using it, during which time it definitely deteriorated. I picked up a copy of the fourth Harry Potter book in French, didn't worry too much about understanding every word and just got on with reading it, and found after a while that quite a lot of the feel of the language, sentence structures, forgotten expressions etc had come back to me. And that was without feeling like I'd actually done any real study!
Anyway, was encouraged enough by this experience that I bought "The Philosopher's Stone" in Japanese. This was pre-discovery of RTK and way beyond me so I ignored it for a year. Now I've nearly completed RTK1 I've started trying to read it again. It's slow going, but I'm definitely picking up vocab and managing to follow the story. I don't understand all the grammar, but can fill in most of the gaps in my understanding with what I remember happening.
I appreciate most people will want to read new stuff and things that are genuinely Japanese but for me, at least, this seems to be quite a useful stepping stone to get to that point.
By the way, ChamCham, Synewave - thanks for the suggestions!
What you reading? - RoboTact - 2007-04-14
fiminor
Great advice! Trying to get native literature you'd like in language and culture you know nothing about is one big frustration.
What you reading? - JimmySeal - 2007-04-14
Fiminor is absolutely right. Reading translations of books you already know is a great way to learn, and it makes it even easier to read without a dictionary because, as fiminor mentioned, it allows you to fill in the gaps in most places. I intend to do this with other languages that I plan to learn in the future.
But I would like to yet again caution people against overdoing this. Translators constantly struggle to force one language's words into another's and they must try to strike a balance between being faithful to the original and producing natural translated text. And it's always a bit of both with sacrifices on both sides. The first one isn't such a big deal, but the second one is. Even the best translator will inevitably produce some unnatural text, even sometimes literally translating idioms because there's just no equivalent in the target language.
So translated books are a good way to step up your ability to the level where you can handle books by native authors, but after a few, I think it's best to leave them behind.
I'm starting to sound like a cantankerous old man, but どうぞ、楽しんでください。
What you reading? - synewave - 2007-04-15
woelpad Wrote:I have all Conans up to 45, 47, 52 - 54. The pre-50's all at 105 yen. I've been reading them for 2 years, on the train on the way home, book in one hand, electronic dictionary in the other. People sometimes recognize me as the gaijin reading Conan on the trainI own 1-8 but am only up to book 5. I bought 1-4 new for about 1,600 yen. Then decided I was being stupid and bought the next 4 for 420 yen down BookOFF. What a shop!
Anyway, I can lend them out to you at the Tokyo meet. Just tell me which ones you have or haven't yet.
If you're happy to lend some books out, 9-12 would probably get me through to the end of May. Or if you actually want rid of them, I'd take them off your hands for 105 yen each.
What you reading? - woelpad - 2007-04-16
synewave Wrote:I own 1-8 but am only up to book 5. I bought 1-4 new for about 1,600 yen. Then decided I was being stupid and bought the next 4 for 420 yen down BookOFF. What a shop!To make you even feel worse, I once saw the first 30 at around the same price you paid for the first 4 at BookOff
synewave Wrote:If you're happy to lend some books out, 9-12 would probably get me through to the end of May. Or if you actually want rid of them, I'd take them off your hands for 105 yen each.Hm, no, I'd rather have them back after you read them. For the kids, you know. No hurry though, they're still in diapers.
What you reading? - Serge - 2007-04-16
Ouch. Guys, can we change the subject of the post to 'What is your favourite Manga?'
So that people who just 'don't appreciate' this genre at all won't look here for suggestions...
What you reading? - chamcham - 2007-04-16
Yeah, I knew someone who did the same thing with reading a book he already read, but this time in Japanese. It was a Harry Potter book.
I think the point is to read something in Japanese that Japanese would see themselves reading. Even if the original story isn't in Japanese, Japanese will read and love the book anyway. It's also great to compare side by side and see how the translations meets up to your expectations.
What you reading? - dingomick - 2007-04-16
I would initially be against reading Harry Potter because of the copious obscure vocabulary, names, and invented words. But now that I think about it, it would be excellent. It's the ultimate window into how a translator thinkgs, and would be full of clever insights into chosen kanji meanings for weird animals, spells, and monsters. I'm excited about it now!
What you reading? - fiminor - 2007-04-17
Wasn't intending this to be a recommendation specifically to read Harry Potter in Japanese! Just for any translation of a book you like. A lot of my students were into Agatha Christie for some reason, but I just couldn't get enthused about trying to read any of those...
I initially wondered the same as dingomick whether it would be harder because of all the obscure names and invented words, but then figured that most of these were likely to be in katakana so at least immediately easy to spot. It may not be the case - haven't actually got as far as Harry going to school yet! I agree it's really interesting to see how these things are approached in translation though.
Jimmyseal Wrote:Even the best translator will inevitably produce some unnatural text, even sometimes literally translating idioms because there's just no equivalent in the target language.This is the downside definitely, but doesn't always have to be true. Just a small example, when I read HP in French, I was interested to see that "Sorting Hat" becomes "Choixpeau", a play on the words "choix" - choice and "chapeau" - hat, which really doesn't translate back into English. I'm not at the point where I could spot this kind of thing in Japanese, but am looking forward to getting to that level!
What you reading? - JimmySeal - 2007-04-17
fiminor Wrote:This is the downside definitely, but doesn't always have to be true. Just a small example, when I read HP in French, I was interested to see that "Sorting Hat" becomes "Choixpeau", a play on the words "choix" - choice and "chapeau" - hat, which really doesn't translate back into English. I'm not at the point where I could spot this kind of thing in Japanese, but am looking forward to getting to that level!True, but bear in mind that French is close to English on the language family tree (heck, English is practically 30% based on French). And what you've just described is what I referred to as, "producing natural translated text" on that 2-way balance, but a translator will, I believe, almost always create something unnatural in an attempt to be faithful to the original.
One example of something nearly untranslatable is anything referring to English itself, such as a note with a secret message encoded in grammar mistakes (I actually saw this in a book translated into Spanish; the translator did not succeed in making that part of the book work). I don't remember the Harry Potter books having any parts like that, but I know that the author gives considerable care to the way she words things, and a translator may be forcing Japanese words into unnatural poses to try to make that stuff work.
But it's probably not such a big deal. I do highly recommend reading a few books that you like as Japanese translations (I've read 5 myself), but jettisoning those books and experiencing real Japanese literature as soon as you can.
What you reading? - synewave - 2007-04-19
From Is this a reason to do RTK3
yorkii Wrote:my current level of Japanese is somewhere in-between JLPT Level 1 and 2. the only other books i have read in Japanese are some elementary and junior high school level novels.That's kind of where I am just now.
In class today I was talking to a kid about what he's reading just now. He likes an author 山田悠介（やまだ・ゆうすけ） who writes both manga as well as fiction novels. They seem to be horror for kids.
So I took 親指さがし（おやゆびさがし）out from the library at lunchtime and it doesn't seem that taxing so far. Don't know too much about the author but it seems pretty apparent that it's not high-brow literature. However for me, being able to read at a decent pace, following what's going on is the most important thing for me.
Might be worth checking out...
What you reading? - yorkii - 2007-04-19
I am just finishing off this collection of books:
http://amazon.co.jp/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/250-7749946-3085817?__mk_ja_JP=%83J%83%5E%83J%83i&url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=%83T%83%93%83S%83%8D%83E&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go
I really enjoyed all the books so far. It's basically about a cat that owns a boat and goes on all sorts of adventures. there is actually more to it than just that, the series kind of explores the fact that cats are supposed to have 9 lives. by this i mean that it kind of hints that Sangorou (the cat) doesn't remember all that he has done, but loads of people recognize him as "that cat that did so-ans-so". Worth a look for people with Japanese skill between JLPT level 2 and 2 i would say. (hate to categorize "skill in Japanese" in terms of the JLPT, but it is a better marker than saying "mid-intermediate, right!?)
yorks
What you reading? - yorkii - 2007-04-19
just remembered something...
i am also have a years subscription to ALC's "日本語ジャーナル". theres loads of good reading material in there. definitely worth a check. It has news reports in written and audio format with each issue as well as kanji tests and JLPT tests. there is loads more stuff that you can get info about here: http://www.alc.co.jp/nj/index.html