I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed!

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - Printable Version

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I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - Zorlee - 2009-12-12

Hi everyone!

I've been doing this Japanese thing for 7-8 months now. I've finished RTK1, KO2001, gone through Tae Kim's guide and mined around 1000 sentenced with subs2srs.
I'm now at a point where I really want to learn Japanese grammar. I REALLY want to nail the basics, the foundation. Learning vocab is really not a problem for me, it just requires time and reviews. No problem there. My biggest problem now is grammar - it's my nr. 1 problem when mining sentences. I mine 30+ sentences a day, but it takes a whole lot of time. Usually because of grammar issues. I know that I could mine sentences at a much higher pace, if my grammar skills were high.
I'm therefore asking for some guidance from you handsome guys and girls.
Like I said, I've done Tae Kim's guide, and found a lot of it useful. BUT particles and verb conjugations are still kicking me every day, and of course - there's a lot of stuff not covered in that guide.
My current plan is:

- All about particles - mine the whole frickin' thing
- Work with "How to Tell the Difference between Japanese Particles" same author.
- Kanzen Master 2級

I'm not sure about this grammar strategy, that's why I'm asking.
I've heard good and bad things about the Kanzen Master books. My goal is not to pass any JLPT-test though. My goal is to really nail the basics, so that mining sentences can get faster and more efficient.

Thank you guys for you input!
Z..

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - mezbup - 2009-12-12

I did Kanzen Master in a week and I can see why theres mixed opinions on it. Personally it won't exactly teach you all the nuanced meanings of grammar in such few example sentences but for me it did a pretty damn good job at filling in a hell of a lot of blanks. I feel it was well worth my time as I come across stuff I learned from it on a regular basis.

That all about particles book sounds really good.

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - harhol - 2009-12-12

All About Particles is about as essential as text books get. A Dictionary of Basic Japanese grammar also explains particles well.

For verb conjugations, you could try creating an Anki deck with one of each verb conjugated in all the different ways with a simple English translation, then use Cram.

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - GoddessCarlie - 2009-12-12

I've used the kanzen master for level 3, and I think it was a great book, but I was using it for review and not to learn. I'm not sure that I personally could learn from it. So for my next book I am going to look for something a bit more comprehensive, I'm thinking maybe the どんな時どう使う books, I hear there is a workbook. That's what I'm thinking.

I'm also looking into getting workbooks to see if I am understanding the grammar. That has worked for me in the past. As always, lots of exposure to it in different formats also helps

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - killeralgae - 2009-12-12

http://smart.fm/goals/64779-all-about-particles
http://smart.fm/goals/105619

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - Aijin - 2009-12-12

A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar is a great resource for understanding Japanese grammar, the reasons behind it, with tons of example sentences to go along with each entry. And once you finish it, you can move on to the Intermediate and eventually the Advanced ones in the series.

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - Hashiriya - 2009-12-12

i was just about to suggest the same thing Aijin did... I'm planning on doing that as soon as i finish all of the 常用漢字's readings... there is a huge file on here somewhere with 8,000+ sentences already made with those i suggest you download. just read the books and correct any sentences with errors as you go.
Edit: here you go http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=4190

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - scotty28 - 2009-12-12

you might already know about it, but if you're going to mine All About Particles, use the google spreadsheets of the sentences that people have kindly prepared already. Saved me loads of time.

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=1393&page=4

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - Aijin - 2009-12-12

What is the point of 'mining' grammar? This is just my opinion, but for me grammar in foreign languages has always been something that once understood, requires experience in many contexts, and has to be used both orally, written, and in thought over a long period of time before it truly sinks in and becomes integrated in the breadth of your linguistic knowledge.

Rather than 'mine' a single sentence that shows a grammatical structure, wouldn't it make more sense to gain conscious knowledge of the grammar, how it functions, then practice using it in many different sentences, contexts, with different vocabulary, and let it slowly become more ingrained as you encounter and use it more often?

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - Ryuujin27 - 2009-12-12

Aijin Wrote:What is the point of 'mining' grammar? This is just my opinion, but for me grammar in foreign languages has always been something that once understood, requires experience in many contexts, and has to be used both orally, written, and in thought over a long period of time before it truly sinks in and becomes integrated in the breadth of your linguistic knowledge.

Rather than 'mine' a single sentence that shows a grammatical structure, wouldn't it make more sense to gain conscious knowledge of the grammar, how it functions, then practice using it in many different sentences, contexts, with different vocabulary, and let it slowly become more ingrained as you encounter and use it more often?

I agree with this. Don't worry about mining grammar. It just comes to you.

For example, I learned the grammar にもかかわらず for 2級 but I had a hell of a time remembering it of the top of my head. Then, on the way to the exam I was reading 村上春樹の海辺のカフカ and what pops up? にもかかわらず. Now I've got it.

You really just need to experience the grammar. When you find a grammar point you don't know, either try to figure it out from context, or look up it up real quick. Don't SRS it (well, do if you really really like the sentence), but rather just re-read the sentence with the knowledge of the grammar point and let your brain fill in the meaning (make sure to get a picture in your head!). Then you should be good... If you come across it again and have forgotten it, do the same thing. It'll stick eventually.

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - harhol - 2009-12-12

The purpose of mining sentences is to learn new things in the context of things you already know. If the new thing in question is grammar that you are unfamiliar with, I don't see why you wouldn't want to mine it.

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - nest0r - 2009-12-12

For the most part--after finishing Japanese the Manga Way/Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar and the 'foundation' sentences we often use (smart.fm/KO2001), I just look up grammar points via Google as I deconstruct sentences I come across in subs2srs decks, but on the side I also still browse through the Dictionary of X Japanese Grammar and even re-review Japanese the Manga Way to kind of just pluck out interesting usages that I think are relevant to 'where I'm at' mood/media-wise. From there, it's just a matter of SRSing the relevant section of multiple example sentences, just grading on how I understand that little bit.

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - Nukemarine - 2009-12-12

Aijin Wrote:What is the point of 'mining' grammar? This is just my opinion, but for me grammar in foreign languages has always been something that once understood, requires experience in many contexts, and has to be used both orally, written, and in thought over a long period of time before it truly sinks in and becomes integrated in the breadth of your linguistic knowledge.

Rather than 'mine' a single sentence that shows a grammatical structure, wouldn't it make more sense to gain conscious knowledge of the grammar, how it functions, then practice using it in many different sentences, contexts, with different vocabulary, and let it slowly become more ingrained as you encounter and use it more often?

Well, to be fair, anyone that "mines" from language books is also "fishing" when they eat at a sushi restaurant. Language books offer prepared and partially digested sentences that quickly enter your system with little effort.

Now, the benefit of putting grammar sentences in an SRS is like any other reason: You want the periodic guarantee over the random encounter. Plus, when you encounter the SRS grammar sentence, you likely have the quick explanation on the same card in case of a wrong answer. On top of that, there's likely three or four sentences per each grammar point.

For common grammar, this may not be important given the odds of running into it circumvent any benefit an SRS has to offer (think Tae Kim Basic and Essential Grammar). However, rare grammar occurrences such as what comes in Kanzen Master 2 and 1 can benefit here. With these, I'm actively tested on whether I understand what's in front of me whereas in the wild of Japanese RPG's, Dramas and Pinku movies my mind might gloss over that particular point.

Again, I think this benefits slow learners such as myself that read and listen to less Japanese on average per day. The more you immerse yourself, the less you need to depend on SRS for vocabulary, kanji and grammar retention.

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - vosmiura - 2009-12-12

If you want to boost your grammar I think, besides mining grammar sentences its really worth doing the questions in books like KM2, or I'd recommend getting 日本語総まとめ問題集 [2級文法編]. By doing the questions you will more quickly learn the differences between similar grammar patterns than through just mining. I have both, but the latter is more suited to learning.

I used this mainly because I wanted to prepare for the JLPT2, but most of the grammar on JLPT2 is really common and useful to know. It'll go a long way to improving your comprehension.

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - mirina - 2009-12-12

Aijin Wrote:What is the point of 'mining' grammar? This is just my opinion, but for me grammar in foreign languages has always been something that once understood, requires experience in many contexts, and has to be used both orally, written, and in thought over a long period of time before it truly sinks in and becomes integrated in the breadth of your linguistic knowledge.

Rather than 'mine' a single sentence that shows a grammatical structure, wouldn't it make more sense to gain conscious knowledge of the grammar, how it functions, then practice using it in many different sentences, contexts, with different vocabulary, and let it slowly become more ingrained as you encounter and use it more often?

I have to agree with this, simply based on my own experiences.

When I first began studying Japanese, without having any guidance and never having ever learned or studied another language before, I thought the most important thing to learn first would be grammar.

I got every grammar resource I could get my hands on--both online and offline resources--and filled two notebooks completely with grammar information. I didn't even know SRS' existed. If I was reading something in Japanese, and couldn't remember the grammar point or didn't understand what was being said, I would look through the notebook until I found the grammar explanation. Usually, after reading it, I was able to get what was being said.

Just looking at a couple sentences in an SRS, I think, are not going to be enough to really help you understand grammar. I say this because certain grammar points which are very complicated, such as the differences between when to use は or が, or で or に, may seem pretty simple at first, but actually, for a nonnative, can get pretty confusing. For example, when I started learning, even though I understood the basic use of で, I would have never thought to use it when referring to groups of people, such as 二人で. This is because, in English, we would always refer to groups of people as a subject or object. I would not have known of this usage, however, had I not repeatedly seen it used in a multitude of sources.

I'm not saying grammar CAN'T be learned by using an SRS... but I think it makes much more sense to make use of resources that extensively explain a grammar point and then come to understand the usage better by seeing it used in many different places.

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - Aijin - 2009-12-12

Ryuujin27 Wrote:For example, I learned the grammar にもかかわらず for 2級 but I had a hell of a time remembering it of the top of my head. Then, on the way to the exam I was reading 村上春樹の海辺のカフカ and what pops up? にもかかわらず. Now I've got it.

Wonderful choice for a Japanese novel and author Smile

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - harhol - 2009-12-12

Ryuu > Haruki Tongue

(not that I dislike Haruki...)

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - Aijin - 2009-12-12

There are plenty of authors that I find much more skillful with prose, characterization, and plotting than him, but I think he's wonderful for a mainstream author Smile

I am just glad that so many people are reading his works rather than the usual garbage that dominates literary popularity and fads. It's very refreshing to see someone talented get fame, glory, wealth, and all rather than the usual mediocrity that becomes a fad simply due to marketing, and the lack of literary experience in the fan-base.

But I'll shutup so we don't drive this off-topic Tongue

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - captal - 2009-12-12

Aijin Wrote:
Ryuujin27 Wrote:For example, I learned the grammar にもかかわらず for 2級 but I had a hell of a time remembering it of the top of my head. Then, on the way to the exam I was reading 村上春樹の海辺のカフカ and what pops up? にもかかわらず. Now I've got it.
Wonderful choice for a Japanese novel and author

I'm reading 国境の南、太陽の西 right now- I read it in English first and am really enjoying reading it again in Japanese. I'm picking up a few of his books before I go home later this week, and I went to the book store to pick up 海辺のカフカ and saw that it was over 1000 pages in Japanese. That scared me off it for now Big Grin

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - chamcham - 2009-12-13

I would suggest mining from Japanese TV drama scripts.

Even if the grammar rules for every particle/pattern/etc may be very
logical, the way that Japanese people actually use their grammar
can be very mind boggling.

I am always amazed when I hear Japanese conversation in TV dramas.
Japanese use their own grammar in ways that I would have never
imagined if I just stuck to the "rules" in Japan grammar textbooks.

So even if you master every JLPT 1 and 2 grammar pattern from the workbooks,
you're still in no way close to fluent unless you start using Japanese the same
way that native speakers use it.

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - pm215 - 2009-12-13

It sounds to me ('nail the basics') like your problem is more "I keep seeing basic grammar I've seen before but I don't have a proper grasp of it" (depth), rather than "I see lots of grammar I've never encountered before" (breadth). So I'm going to suggest that rather than simply put lots of grammar related sentences into an a SRS, you take a slightly more 'traditional' approach. Focus on one particular thing (eg passive forms), read some explanations of it, look through a whole pile of sentences all using that one point, write out how it works for various verbs, think up some sentences of your own that try to use it [careful with the last if you don't have somebody to check]. The idea is to make sure you have at least an intellectual grasp on it, so that you could probably come up with the right answer given half a minute. *Then* put some relevant sentences into the SRS so you get the periodic reexposure you need for it to properly sink in.

You don't need to do this for everything; some of the 'grammar patterns' in JLPT2 really are simple enough that you could probably just look through the examples and SRS them immediately; things like を中心にして are hovering on the boundary between grammar and vocabulary.

I actually think that progressing through and reinforcing basic grammar patterns is something most textbook courses do pretty well, incidentally.

chamcham: I don't think "real life grammar is more complicated and subtle than textbook grammar" implies "and therefore you should ignore textbook grammar and go straight for real life examples". It just means you haven't finished when you've done the textbook :-)

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - Zorlee - 2009-12-13

Wow, thank you guys so much for your input (and for the literature recommendations! Big Grin

)

pm215 pretty much nailed my problem. I do know a lot of "intermediate" and "advanced" grammar (according the the "Handbook of ... Japanese Grammar"), but I really don't see the point in working my way through a whole lot of advanced material, without a proper foundation. I have the same approach when practising the drums - if I can't nail the basic exercise, then I'm NOT moving on to another exercise.
Like you said, pm, some more "advanced" grammar points are pretty much vocabulary, or at least I've treated them that way.

I'll probably do the AAP books, while working through other example sentences, using the same particles. This will hopefully boost my particle comprehension.
Regarding the "other stuff", I do have some problems. My problem with say f.ex passive forms, since pm mentioned it, is that I've read through different explanations, and do grasp the function of the conjugation and I do understand the example sentences.
My problem occurs when I read a native sentence, and a whole lot of stuff is omitted (a lot of particles not being used, subject not being used etc.), in addition to the fact that a lot of verbs can be both passive or potential, for example.
I don't know if any textbook can help me out with that problem. Currently I've either skipped such a sentence or added it, in hope of understanding it with exposure. Sometimes exposure helps, but usually I don't grasp the subtle meanings of such sentences. That's why I've skipped them lately, hoping to find a good way to learn the grammar. I'll probably try your suggestion, pm, and see if I can improve my Japanese in that way!

Oh well, enough whining. Study-time! =)
Thank you guys, and keep your recommendations coming!

Z..

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - Tobberoth - 2009-12-13

I disagree with Aijin, my experience mining the whole Kanzen Master book showed me just how useful it is to pick a few example sentences for a grammar point you don't know and just letting it sink in as you repeat them.

Like I said in the other topic, expecting pure exposure to teach you everything effectively is naive, no one here has the time nor energy to do that much exposure so effectively. Instead, you pick a few sentences to make sure you don't forget the grammar. This doesn't stop you from exploring the grammar point outside of the SRS, everytime you read something you might see it, you might hear it watching something, you might use it in a conversation. The mining is there to let you get a basic grasp of everything quickly and remember it, and it works wonderful for grammar just as it does for vocab.

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - pm215 - 2009-12-13

Zorlee Wrote:Regarding the "other stuff", I do have some problems. My problem with say f.ex passive forms, since pm mentioned it, is that I've read through different explanations, and do grasp the function of the conjugation and I do understand the example sentences.
My problem occurs when I read a native sentence, and a whole lot of stuff is omitted (a lot of particles not being used, subject not being used etc.), in addition to the fact that a lot of verbs can be both passive or potential, for example.

My guess (and it is only a guess) is that when your understanding is at that sort of level what you want is more input/exposure, but at the right level. You want sentences which use the passive in fairly straightforward ways, which aren't too elliptical to comprehend, or where the vocab and context make it really obvious what's going on. Then when you're at a level when you just read those without even thinking 'ooh, that's a passive' you can throw in the harder stuff.

I really want to nail that Japanese grammar - Help needed! - yudantaiteki - 2009-12-13

Tobberoth Wrote:Like I said in the other topic, expecting pure exposure to teach you everything effectively is naive, no one here has the time nor energy to do that much exposure so effectively.

And what's perhaps more dangerous is that you can get to a point where you think you know more than you do; you can become pretty good at ignoring things you don't know and reading for fairly good comprehension even when you don't understand everything.

chamcham Wrote:I am always amazed when I hear Japanese conversation in TV dramas.
Japanese use their own grammar in ways that I would have never
imagined if I just stuck to the "rules" in Japan grammar textbooks.

Of course, this depends on the textbook -- I find that JSL's grammatical explanations are very good at dealing even with conversational speech because they really get into the basic roots of the grammar instead of just teaching grammar through translations of sentences.