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+--- Thread: 花 - flower primitive/radical... (/thread-460.html)
花 - flower primitive/radical... - elktapestry - 2007-03-31
So the primitive atop the Kanji for flower 花 that Hesig denotes as the flower primitive... I've found it somewhat easier for me to construct stories which contain this primitive/radical if I think of it more as grass, herbs, and flowers... a sort of general concept encompassing them all. To me it honestly kinda' looks like a short fence one might frame around an herb garden or a decorative lawn.
Also, I'm finding the Kanji index I'm using reffering to the radical as 艾 which means moxa, sagebrush, wormwood, mugwort.
I know Hesig isn't basing all his primitives directly off the radical meaning... and i see how his streches are helpful... however, I'm wondering for those around here more experienced with using Hesig's method...
do you see any trouble or complications arising from me stretching the meaning of that primitive to mean flower, grass, and herbs (all those little growing things...all in one)??
Thought I'd get a second opinion from you all before I go skipping off down my own reckless path here.
花 - flower primitive/radical... - RoboTact - 2007-03-31
Many primitive meanings are arbitrary. Idea is that more vivid and specific/tangible meanings help in story construction.
花 - flower primitive/radical... - elktapestry - 2007-03-31
Sure, but to me flower is so specific and ill suited for some of the Kanji containing that radical/primitive that I can't think up a story that sticks well enough with it. Whereas, in many of them I found if I thought of it as a more encompassing general grass/flower/herb primitive... the stories I could make were much easier for me to recall.
I'm just wondering if there's a snag down the line that would make me doing this akin to shooting myself in the foot? Y'know... meaning too close to something else that pops up later or the like... conflicts with other aspects of Hesigs method... etc...
花 - flower primitive/radical... - ファブリス - 2007-03-31
Yes, Heisig's "flower" primitive is a simplified version of the radical for "grass" 艸. It isn't that much of a stretch from "flower", to "grass", imho; given that in each of those kanji you can "stretch" your images and still retain the primitive name of "flower".
But as for "herbs", at least in my own imagination, it brings concepts of medicines, healing etc, and that will REALLY get you confused later on, so I would avoid that.
I suppose you've come accross kanji #224 "grass" already.
Another that comes to mind is #1216 "turf" 芝. But those "grass like" kanji are few. But for example with turf, it's not difficult to imagine grass with a few daisies and still retain the "flower" primitive.
花 - flower primitive/radical... - elktapestry - 2007-03-31
Hmmn... is it just the "healing" angle of "herbs" that would confuse things? I'm not really much of a man for alternative medicines and healing-hoo-haw... so for me, when I think of herbs as use in primitives it would more be uses of herbs in the cooking sense... bitter herbs... sweet herbs... basil... thyme... mugwort... sage... small plants that grow amidst the grass and dirt and add tastes of different sorts to food. Would that still be a conflict somewhere?
Just noticed though, the Kanji for medicine (薬) does have that primitive in it no? Still not really apt to think of herbs in the medicinal sense as much as I would in the culinary sense.
花 - flower primitive/radical... - astridtops - 2007-04-01
I used 'flower' throughout RTK1, but I had to abandon that when I started having loads and loads of plants and flower kanji in RTK3. I then sometimes substituted 'plant' for flower, and that worked just as well. I suspect using herbs as in cookery herbs is not a problem, just stay away from anything approaching a tree. While this primitive has some odd uses here and there that has nothing to do with plants at all, like baggage or technique, it is still most commonly used in lots and lots of plant names.
花 - flower primitive/radical... - elktapestry - 2007-04-01
Ah, I just came across the study section for Kanji #226 寛. Seems like there already has been some discussion of the Flower/Grass use of this radical there.
花 - flower primitive/radical... - suffah - 2007-04-03
elktapestry,
This is slightly off-topic, but I do like the way you create stories. Keep em coming!
花 - flower primitive/radical... - elktapestry - 2007-04-03
Ah, thanks much. I'll definitely keep posting stories through the course of my Kanji studies.
Sorry, to anyone, if I grumble a tad too much about Heisig and his choices of keywords or omissions. I generally appreciate Heisig's book and the method it promotes... even if I have dislike for some of his own religiously tinted mnemonics and questionable choices of key words. Guess it just shows how we all have different ways of looking at (and remembering) things.
But again, glad you liked the stories I posted Suffah.
花 - flower primitive/radical... - Kieron - 2007-04-04
Straying a bit off the original topic, but if you dislike some of the keywords, the Kodansha Kanji Learner's Dictionary is a handy reference to have around -- it's structured around keywords of its own, which occasionally make better (at least for me) substitutes. Although it's a good dictionary all around, it's particularly well suited to RtK, and especially for kanji with enough meanings that picking just one keyword is tricky.
(oh, and: Heisig. That keeps triggering my reflexive copyediting instinct.
)
花 - flower primitive/radical... - elktapestry - 2007-04-04
Agh!! Thanks for pointing it out to me. Heisig Heisig Heisig... with two i's not one... damn! Perhaps I should figgure out some kind of mnemonic story to keep that straight in my head.
Also, I do have the Kodansha Kanji Learner's Dictionary as well as some other reference sources. I definately don't rely on Heisigs book as the end all be all to my Kanji learning... however... the system of mnemonics for memory is something I've prized from the beginning of my language studies... I was quite happy to come across Heisig's book that presents such a comprehensive augmentation and aid to the mnemonic process concerning the learning of Kanji.