+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The Japanese language (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-10.html)
+--- Thread: an interesting discussion about pronouns... (/thread-4467.html)
an interesting discussion about pronouns... - dtcamero - 2012-07-20
so I've been living in japan for about 2 months now and have made a small number of close friends here. one night I had a very interesting discussion with 3 people about pronouns...which was truly illuminating for me, and I thought might be beneficial for others if I were to share.
(i should say this is fairly controversial territory, but there was a consensus of 3 30-ish intelligent natives here and it rang very true with my experiences over the last 2 months...moreover I am male and this is all to be understood as male speech, being that japanese is a very gendered language.)
The beginning was a very useful explaination of first-person pronouns...
-私 everyone knows and practically speaking is really used for work situations and when you meet someone for the first time. Also speaking with older people or people you want to show respect towards... the same goes for -masu desu situations.
-before coming to Japan I thought 僕 sounded like a little boy, is innapropriate if you're over 25, and generally conveys a lack of confidence. this is totally untrue... and actually 僕 is the go-to pronoun for men of all ages in most situations, especially if you don't know which to use. I have met 35, 45 year old men in very prominent social positions who pretty much use boku exclusively when not in formal situations. this was one of the biggest surprises for me and I had a real fight to get over years of bias towards boku. it was actually really hard to get it out of my mouth at first but I needed to break a bad habit...
-that habit was 俺. I know we all learn that it's a very familiar, possibly offensive word, but all the coolest guys use it in not just every anime but every dorama as well... and there are times to use it but you have to know people very well (think close group here) otherwise people think you're talking down to them. the one exception is that girls do seem to react overall positively to ore, but there are some that will be put off by it (like if you wear a tight shirt to show off muscles) and boku is a much safer option. unless it's going very well... I'd use boku during nampa...
-自分is basically used to express a minority opinion or action... I (exclusively or as opposed to many others) do/think/like X...
-using one's own name as a pronoun is pretty weird to japanese people, just a little less than it is weird to us.
-内 is generally kansai-ben and very difficult to use right so leave it alone.
then we talked about second-person pronouns...
-basically until you know someone like a friend, one needs to use their last name+san... my problem with this is that I always forget peoples names (in english as well...).
the response was, half-jokingly, not to speak(!). What I took from it is that it is very important in japanese (more than english) to remember peoples names during an introduction. People generally say their names quickly and I make it a habit to always ask afterwards "xxx-さんですね？" to make sure I got it right, and to help cement it in my head...
-there is always the option to not use a 主語 (sentence subject) in japanese. the only thing that makes this work is that many japenese sentences don't use a subject... but in reality (I'm told) this is almost as confusing to the japanese as it would be for us. when I didn't know the person's name and tried to do this, it usually ended up with the person not knowing who the subject was and pointing at me, then him, alternatingly while making a quizzical face.
-あなた is like a bad backup for this situation... not good, but not a disaster if used sparingly. it is generally considered very direct. Of the people I spoke to 2 were ok with it but one didn't like to be called anata, even by friends, so beware.
-I thought あんた was like anata, very familiar, but probably even more familiar because it's a contraction, right? wrong. I was corrected in a text message that this was a bad word and should not be used. Later i was told that anta has a nuance of hostility, like aitsu but not as strong.
-君 was unexpectedly ok for a guy to use with a girl... totally unlike ore, kimi is not over-familiar, just very warm-feeling in this particular situation... like how a big brother would talk to a little sister. Not cool to use with other guys though.
one last interesting point was だろう・でしょう... If you grade politeness on a 10 scale, with 10 being most polite, masu/desu vs ru/da and watashi vs boku distinctions are like a 8 vs 6 on that scale. deshou vs darou is like 8 vs 3. quite impolite as was explained to me. not necessarily a bad thing but inappproriate for many circumstances.
this was how it was broken down to me...(informally and not trying to be perfect)
これはビルですーThis is a beer.
これはビルだー here's a beer.
これはビルでしょうーThis is a beer, isn't it?
これはビルだろうーhey this is a f**king beer right?
I didn't know this particular point at all before so I'm assuming many others also don't and would do well to be warned.
so that's the gist of it...some of that I obviously already knew, but I think what you get out of books and immersion is a very small fraction of the nuance that is *essential* for everyday conversation... we're not talking subtlety here. right now I just want to be able to make friends and not offend anyone.
an interesting discussion about pronouns... - yudantaiteki - 2012-07-20
The だろう issue is actually in JSL, although I'm not sure it's quite as bad as they say in all cases. In my experience females rarely use だろう without anything after it (i.e. と思う or something), and even a lot of guys use でしょう instead.
I think a big difference is between what the だろう actually means. If it is showing genuine doubt, it's less rude/threatening than if it's being used to question or challenge someone else.
As you said, 僕 is widely used by men of all ages; when people say it's only used by children they may be talking about some dialect (or they're just wrong).
君 with girls varies. At one point I was interested in this issue and I asked five girls around my own age, all 5 of them said flatly that they found 君 from guys insulting and they wouldn't even want their boyfriends/husbands to use that with them. Even more surprising, two of them said they would be semi-OK with おまえ (from boyfriend/husband) even though 君 was totally bad.
One other surprising thing I've noticed this time I was in Japan is guys using かしら in formal situations instead of かな. This really goes along well with what JSL says, that there really is very little language in Japanese that's truly "feminine", rather it's that language is "blunt" or "gentle" and women are more likely to use gentle language than men (and less likely to use blunt).
an interesting discussion about pronouns... - vileru - 2012-07-20
+1 to yudantaiteki's observations regarding 君. I used it once. My gf told me never to say it again. Apparently, it's a belittling expression that implies the speaker is the protector/guardian of the person addressed. Hence, only submissive women tend to like it.
an interesting discussion about pronouns... - dtcamero - 2012-07-20
ok well that's pretty interesting because I've pretty much only used that with my 2 jp gf's, and this one close friend, who all responded really positively. I have noticed however that there are women who seem uncomfortable with it.
so what did you use with your girlfriend then? just her first name without any suffix?
an interesting discussion about pronouns... - vileru - 2012-07-21
Yes, I usually just call her by her first name. Sometimes I'll add ～ちゃん. I also have a stock of "inside-names" (like inside-jokes, but with names) based on certain experiences.
an interesting discussion about pronouns... - Tori-kun - 2012-07-21
There is an anecdote I can tell about おまえ at least.. I know a guy from kansai and when we got to know eachother, we knew that we just fit (from our humour and our preference to troll the internet, or especially on Lang8). What was surprising to me was that he was using おまえ instantly when talking to me! From books I knew it was some derogatory or rather impolite word, but it seemed to be ok using it when we were trolling and making jokes and stuff.
The other day I was texting with a friend from Yokohama and when I used おまえ he really bursted out what a 小僧 I was and that he could not keep up accepting* my bad language. (It seems he tried to ignore it all the way.. Anyway, we were really good friends, but it seems this incident has kind of destroyed a good friendship)
It was explained to me that おまえ is used in Kansai more relaxedly, but might sound extremely unpolite in Tokyo/Yokohama for example. Anyway, I just like the sound of this word so much....
＊大目に見てやらないんだよ。言葉遣いに気をつけ！
an interesting discussion about pronouns... - DevvaR - 2012-07-21
I got some input from a Japanese friend about this, she agrees with pretty much everything. Just a few of things she added.
-Girls something refer to themselves by their own names or うち but it's considered childish.
-Generally, use 僕 when talking to older people in non formal situations. (In my case, to my host mother and father)
-これはビルだろう really depends on the intonation and situation.
By the way, she lives around Nagoya.
an interesting discussion about pronouns... - dizmox - 2012-07-21
yudantaiteki Wrote:The だろう issue is actually in JSL, although I'm not sure it's quite as bad as they say in all cases. In my experience females rarely use だろう without anything after it (i.e. と思う or something), and even a lot of guys use でしょう instead.I get kind of peeved when I get "corrected" on stuff like this to do with the femininity/masculinity of my speech by people who think I don't know better since I'm a foreigner. That's just how I talk. ;_; When I was a beginner I did as told by my girlfriend, but years later with the same girl, the expectations of how I should speak are feeling quite awkward. Oh well, at least she doesn't tell me to use 俺.
I use 僕 since it's more gender neutral than 私 or 俺 in informal situations for young people. For second person pronouns I just use their name.
an interesting discussion about pronouns... - kazeatari - 2012-07-21
Boku is a polite pronoun. Like someone said isn't childish at all, but children do use it often 'cause they don't really know how to properly speak in every occasion. That's why saying "Nee, Boku!" is like saying "Hey, boy!".
Boku can be used by girls... when they're going to kindergarden (it's probably about imitation) and in songs. Female singers use often boku (it probably depends on they're "chara", I mean, how they want to sell themselves), an example would be Hitomi Takahashi.
While boku is polite, kimi affirms a social standing.
The professor in Moyashimon (a man 60 yrs old) uses boku and kimi.
So please do remember that it can't be said "boku" is polite and kimi is rude.
Women too, btw, use "kimi" ...if they're your boss for example.
Still, boku and kimi are a different thing, when you're talking about a couple. There's a manga named "kimi to boku no ashiato". In this kind of context "kimi" is always a girl, no doubt.
When you call a boy or a girl on the street (if you don't get arrested immediately) you'll say "Nee, kimi!". In this case the upper social standing is given by the difference in your age.
"Nee, kimi!" is more or less the nuance kimi usually has. It sounds like "Hey, you" most of the times, or like "Hey, baby/babe" when you use it with a girl.
So...? - you'll say. So it's up to the girl... ask yourself "Will she like my attitude?" and decide.
On the other hand "omae" is fine if said by husband or boyfriend 'cause it's the right word you'd use in a real couple (not talking about nanpa, ne). If you two have just met, it can be overfamiliar, but it's a different kind of attitude.
Going to nanpa on the street is rude in itself, so if you use "kimi" isn't probably that strange... However I suggest "Anoo, oneesan...".
Well, it can seem I'm digressing, but truth is, I just wanted to talk about the term "oneesan" (and oniichan). An important thing to say is that age doesn't matter. An old lady can call "oniisan" a man almost 30 (it happened to me a few times, so I know what I'm talking about).
Using one's own name instead of a pronoun is childish, and the same is true for uchi (feminine and ..."childish" isn't right... does "kiddish" exist? Well, it would be better). ah! unless you're in kansai (where uchi is used by women of every age).
Osaka in Azumanga Daiou uses "uchi".
However I've heard housewife saying "uchi no hito" (my husband) and they weren't from Kansai. So I guess this expression is an exception or using uchi is not "kiddish" as we think.
Just in case...
A word about "anta". I've actually heard "anta" is used by female only (in stead of omae). It's not true, males use it too.
Ah! Kimi isn't used by male only (read above). Same goes for omae.
One other thing...
Between "kore wa biiru desu" and "kore wa biiru da" there should be "kore wa biiru".
Using da after noun or na-keiyoushi is very assertive. Indeed "da" is (was) a lot more frequent in male speech (till some time ago).
Quote:私 everyone knows and practically speaking is really used for work situations and when you meet someone for the first time. Also speaking with older people or people you want to show respect towards... the same goes for -masu desu situations.Not sure about that "older people": in most of the sistuations boku would be just fine. The use of watashi tells something about the speaker, it's about being formal not "just polite".
When you have a senpai-kouhai relation in a friendly context (specially in a work-related context), the kouhai will probably use "ore" and the "desu/masu" form.
Yeah... I'm not drunk. It's your senpai (hence you use themasu form), but at the same time is your friend, you hang out after work, so "ore" is perfectly fine (I'm talking about real life, not grammar rules).
On the other hand one shouldn't think watashi is a meek or servile pronoun.
When you're on your job place "boku" is -actually- a common used pronoun (unless you're talking with you're boss). However I've read a guy talking about how more "cool" watashi was (because, while boku is quite normal, watashi sounds like "hey, look how professional I am").
What else?
Kisama is not "vulgar" (but it's obviously rude). It can be really hostile (I mean, it's more about hating someone and tell him that, than about insulting him). On the other hand it can be an "upgraded version of kimi" (it really emphasizes one's social standing). So it's often used by officiers in the military... and by Medaka in Medaka Box.
Ok, I hope sharing what I learnt will help someone - even if it's written in my horrible English.
an interesting discussion about pronouns... - dtcamero - 2012-07-21
Ya that's really interesting, thanks!
an interesting discussion about pronouns... - kitakitsune - 2012-07-21
For those interested - the official stance of the Japanese Ministry of Education is that 僕 is to be used by schoolboys only who then transition into using 私 when they become adults.
Of course Japan doesn't work out exactly to government plan but I thought it was interesting because those of us with teaching experience in Japan have probably heard teachers breaking this rule all the time.
an interesting discussion about pronouns... - vileru - 2012-07-21
kazeatari Wrote:However I've read a guy talking about how more "cool" watashi was (because, while boku is quite normal, watashi sounds like "hey, look how professional I am")..I've heard the same from a middle-aged Japanese woman. She emphasized that using わたし emphasizes your maturity and confidence. She also joked that professors use ぼく a lot because they still haven't left the university. However, I should add that opinions on first-person pronouns are highly subjective.
an interesting discussion about pronouns... - kazeatari - 2012-07-22
Quote:She also joked that professors use ぼく a lot because they still haven't left the university. However, I should add that opinions on first-person pronouns are highly subjective.Doukan da.
I did make an example with a professor, but I've also just finished a drama, Jiu, where a detective talk with a terrorist using boku (and kimi)... After the terrorist's reply (not too politely), the detective shifts to ore (and omae).
Moreover, here are some pictures I put together for a post on my blog... the third one is about a yakuza in Yugo who uses boku to be polite speaking with someone in a ryokan.
Last one is about Yuu Takahashi who always uses boku in his songs.
A badass character like Kiritsugu (Fate/Zero) uses boku and Eisaku Satou, an ex-PM, talking to the Diet used "watakushi", but talking to the press used "boku". I just can't bring myself to think all of them as childish. So your thinking is probably right and people really have a different feeling about pronouns. It would explain also why anime characters use more first person pronouns than they have hair colors: it gives a completely different feeling to each charcter.
Quote:the official stance of the Japanese Ministry of Education is that 僕 is to be used by schoolboysMy first guess would be that there's some kind of mistake. "Shoolboys should use boku" and "Boku should be used by shoolboys (only)" are very different sentences.
If monbushou wants to tell students how to speak with sensei is no big deal, but thinking to decree only schoolboys shoud use a certain pronoun is kind of weird.
If there was no such a mistake I'd be very interested in reading some kind of source 'cause this argument has always been of great interest to me and I want to read as much as possible about it. m(_ _)m
an interesting discussion about pronouns... - kitakitsune - 2012-07-22
Quote:My first guess would be that there's some kind of mistake. "Shoolboys should use boku" and "Boku should be used by shoolboys (only)" are very different sentences.From the book, Keigo in Modern Japan by Patricia Wetzel.
If monbushou wants to tell students how to speak with sensei is no big deal, but thinking to decree only schoolboys shoud use a certain pronoun is kind of weird.
If there was no such a mistake I'd be very interested in reading some kind of source 'cause this argument has always been of great interest to me and I want to read as much as possible about it. m(_ _)m
The statement about boku is from Kokugo Shingikai overhauls of the Japanese language after WWII. 1952 to be exact.
The exact quote is this -
"'Boku, is a special form for schoolboys, but when one becomes a member of society one begins to use 'watashi' again, taking care in one's speech, as to be expected on the basis of education."
an interesting discussion about pronouns... - Tzadeck - 2012-07-22
vileru Wrote:Yes, I usually just call her by her first name. Sometimes I'll add ～ちゃん. I also have a stock of "inside-names" (like inside-jokes, but with names) based on certain experiences.I'm surprised by how many people want me to do that even if I'm not dating them, haha. Just an example in the last few months: There was a girl who I'm quite close with now, who I was originally trying to date. I'm 26 and she's 22. The third time I went out with her I called her nameさん and she was offended and surprised (the first couple of times we went out we mostly used English). She said she felt close to me and I should call her by her first name with no さん. She still gets mad when I use さん by mistake.
We are pretty close though--we've e-mailed each other basically every day since we met in March and meet about once a week. Though, the no さん thing happened quite early on.
(This is one of those times when you have to wonder whether it's only because some people feel like they can be more open, casual, and straightforward when talking with foreigners)
an interesting discussion about pronouns... - HonyakuJoshua - 2012-07-22
in the UK and amongst my friends I would take close to mean *****ɨng - is it different in the states?
an interesting discussion about pronouns... - Tzadeck - 2012-07-22
HonyakuJoshua Wrote:in the UK and amongst my friends I would take close to mean *****ɨng - is it different in the states?Haha, naw, doesn't mean that here. Though, lord knows I'd like to. She's quite a woman.
an interesting discussion about pronouns... - yudantaiteki - 2012-07-22
kitakitsune Wrote:bout boku is from Kokugo Shingikai overhauls of the Japanese language after WWII. 1952 to be exact.That's 70 years ago! I don't think that has much relevance to how people use the language now.
And re:ちゃん, it's definitely in more widespread use than the usual "anime suffix list" would have you believe. It depends on the people but it's quite common for friends of any gender to use ちゃん -- even males will sometimes use ちゃん in reference to their male friends. You sometimes see the claims that it's demeaning, only used for (or by) girls, only used for (or by) children, or only used by people who are dating, but in my experience none of these are true as a general rule.
Quote:(This is one of those times when you have to wonder whether it's only because some people feel like they can be more open, casual, and straightforward when talking with foreigners)In that case I definitely don't think so. In my experience, it would be perfectly normal for a native Japanese 26 year old male to call a 22 year old female friend Xちゃん.
That can happen, though. Right now I'm in my 5th year of PhD. I have friends here who are 1st year PhD or even master's students. If I were Japanese and attending this university as a degree-seeking student, I would be sort of a 大先輩 and they might not feel comfortable speaking in plain form or 呼び捨て. But because I'm only here as a research student temporarily and I'm a foreigner, it's definitely possible that they feel less obligated to show the Japanese-style "hierarchy" respect to me.
an interesting discussion about pronouns... - kitakitsune - 2012-07-22
yudantaiteki Wrote:Yes I already said Japan doesn't go according to government plan but the statements about 僕 are still on the books and in official 文部省 documents. It's interesting, that's all.kitakitsune Wrote:bout boku is from Kokugo Shingikai overhauls of the Japanese language after WWII. 1952 to be exact.That's 70 years ago! I don't think that has much relevance to how people use the language now.
an interesting discussion about pronouns... - Tzadeck - 2012-07-22
yudantaiteki Wrote:Is -chan a bit more polite than nothing at all? That's always been my impression. I just call her by her first name with no suffix. I use -chan with young women considerably more quickly than nothing (and, in certain cases like girlfriends of friends, even when I don't know them all that well).Quote:(This is one of those times when you have to wonder whether it's only because some people feel like they can be more open, casual, and straightforward when talking with foreigners)In that case I definitely don't think so. In my experience, it would be perfectly normal for a native Japanese 26 year old male to call a 22 year old female friend Xちゃん.
Also, she's also pretty good friends with a male Japanese friend of ours who is 29, and he calls her nameさん, but for some reason she isn't offended by it like she is when I do it.
an interesting discussion about pronouns... - nadiatims - 2012-07-23
re: personal pronouns
It's not like you have to pick just 1. Guys can use 僕 in certain situations and 俺 in others. Or 自分 or うち or whatever else appropriate to the situation.
an interesting discussion about pronouns... - merlin.codex - 2012-07-23
.
an interesting discussion about pronouns... - buonaparte - 2012-08-02
私＋自分= watashi + jibun (First-person singular pronoun)
http://www.maggiesensei.com/2011/08/05/request-lesson-%E7%A7%81%EF%BC%8B%E8%87%AA%E5%88%86-watashi-jibun-first-person-singular-pronoun/
Is あなた(=anata) OK to use? 2nd-person pronouns + nicknames
http://www.maggiesensei.com/2011/09/05/is-%E3%81%82%E3%81%AA%E3%81%9Fanata-ok-to-use-2nd-person-pronouns-nicknames/
an interesting discussion about pronouns... - buonaparte - 2012-08-02
1. I've always wondered how teachers and her classmates address 愛子.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiko,_Princess_Toshi
2. When a Japanese person thinks about her/himslelf, what pronouns do they use?
I mean THINKING in her head, not talking about herself/himself to somebody else.