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Remembering sentences, not words? - mirina - 2010-01-01
So I've started writing on Lang-8, which means: production. What I've found, however, is that when I'm stuck on a word, instead of being able to recall the word itself, I end up recalling the entire sentence I first saw it in (or the sentence I always see it in when going through my SRS reviews).
For example, I was trying to remember 工夫. But rather than immediately recall the word, I instead first remembered the last word of the sentence it was in --やり遂げた. Then, from there I had to work backwards through the sentence until I reached 工夫, and THEN the word finally came to me.
Is this happening to anyone else? Should I consider this a bad thing or a good thing? Or neither?
Remembering sentences, not words? - magamo - 2010-01-01
I think it's normal, and it's not a bad thing at all. It's bad only if you're trying to use the word 工夫 in a different context than you picked it up in.
You'll be able to speak like a native speaker when your sentence inventory becomes so large it covers pretty much every situation you come across as long as you've picked up sentences only from native material. The number of native sentences you've learned determines how well you can speak/write. The percentage of non-native sentences (such as example phrases you learned from textbooks and phrase books) in your sentence inventory determines how awkward you sound. You can take advantage of grammar in exchange for naturalness when the listener/reader can wait until you finish producing a sentence.
This isn't only about a second language. Native speakers also face the exact same problem when they have to talk about unfamiliar topics; You can tell if a person is "in the know" from his word choice etc. For example, you can often pick up on "noobs" on a forum from their writing styles. If you're not familiar with computers, you might mispronounce SATA.
You can't say what you don't know. Only input can directly improve your output level. Production practice is good to hone your speaking/writing skills to take full advantage of what you've learned, but your Japanese stays at the same level.
Remembering sentences, not words? - mirina - 2010-01-04
Thanks for your insight, magamo.
I definitely agree with all of what you said. I don't do output very much at all, and I'm sure it works against me (since, although I can read intermediate to advanced materials comfortably in Japanese, my mind is not trained to work fast enough to produce a coherent sentence when speaking), I've noticed, after I take long breaks from Lang-8 and do nothing but read, when I return to the website months later, I can write much longer diaries, and yet require fewer corrections. (Sorry, this was like the longest sentence ever created.)
On a daily basis, when reading, I notice grammar patterns I'd never noticed or thought about before. So if I stopped getting input, my Japanese would definitely never advance.
Remembering sentences, not words? - aphasiac - 2010-01-04
You need to see a word in multiple sentences, in many contexts before you become familiar with it. From my limited experience with sentences, 1 sentence is not enough.
A way round this is to keep a separate SRS vocab deck.
Remembering sentences, not words? - wildweathel - 2010-01-04
aphasiac Wrote:A way round this is to keep a separate SRS vocab deck.説明してください。
I don't understood that. If seeing a word in only one sentence doesn't always allow you to use it in other contexts (something everyone agrees on), how is reviewing a word with no context any better?
Remembering sentences, not words? - aphasiac - 2010-01-04
wildweathel Wrote:I don't understood that. If seeing a word in only one sentence doesn't always allow you to use it in other contexts (something everyone agrees on), how is reviewing a word with no context any better?I think it only becomes useful once you hear it or see it in your Japanese immersion environment. It then takes on context.
Personally I don't keep a vocab deck, but a few users here swear by it for the exact reason listed above. They'll be able to explain better.
Remembering sentences, not words? - Nukemarine - 2010-01-04
I use a vocab deck as it has a sentence that is there specifically to highlight that vocab word. In my case, it's either Smart.fm or Tanuki vocab lists.
Plus, I do dictation with my vocab deck, but not my sentence mining deck. Again, the reason is since the sentence is there to highlight the word, it removes ambiguity most of the time as to what word I need to write.
However, it's not mandatory. It's up to the user to decide if they lean more on their sentence mined deck, multiple decks, or none at all (some users here don't do SRS at all).
Remembering sentences, not words? - TaylorSan - 2010-01-04
I have the same thing happen when I try to produce... I'll have to remember and play in my head the sentence I learned it from to get to the word I want to use. I decided to do a separate vocab deck in anki to help with this, and to better learn the dictionary form. I only do this with the smartfm. sentences/vocab, and I had a head start with the words in the sentence deck, so I can usually move through the vocab deck pretty quickly. I have no illusions that this will reap mastery over the knowing of the word, but it is a good way to give it it's own place in my mind, get the kanji/reading/pronunciation part, and then native sentences can add more contextual understanding, and eventually solid production. Plus it's great for nouns.
So my anki study is in three decks - smartfm. sentences (KO2k1 lists), vocab (same lists), and another deck for mining more context based media (dorama, jpod, anything else that peeks my interest). I keep the decks separate because it seems more coherent to review that way for me. I think of the SRS as a way to introduce words and begin the process of learning, as only a part of the many layers of exposure needed to gain mastery of it's content. It's just a supplement to gear me up for the language "in the wild".
Remembering sentences, not words? - zer0range - 2010-01-04
Quote:Is this happening to anyone else?This happens pretty frequently with me.
Quote:Should I consider this a bad thing or a good thing?I think this is an indication that the word you're looking for needs more familiarizing/context. That is, I find that if there's a word that I've only studied in one sentence, sometimes I have to go through the sentence in my mind before it comes. However, after I have that same word in 3-4 sentences, this problem goes away.
Remembering sentences, not words? - wildweathel - 2010-01-04
TaylorSan Wrote:I have the same thing happen when I try to produce... I'll have to remember and play in my head the sentence I learned it from to get to the word I want to use.変なのです。僕にはそんなことが起こらないので、あっちこっちに命令を出せば駄目でしょう。
I wonder why that happens. Maybe you need to experience that word more (=more listening)--or maybe you're looking for an English word-->remember it in the context of the English sentence-->replay Japanese sentence. For what it's worth, I pay very little attention to the English translation when reviewing Core2000.
Remembering sentences, not words? - TaylorSan - 2010-01-04
Yeah, I think it's in part a lack of familiarity with the word (sometimes I've only seen it one time in one sentence in the SRS perhaps). If I see it in many other sentences, then it's maybe not a problem. I think too that I encode the information for the word in the sentence pattern, so I've basically memorized a sentence and not each individual word (in some cases) to the same degree.
There is definitely English going on in my head when I'm trying to speak Japanese at times as I'm a beginner after all. Super familiar phrases and words come off natural, no English interference but if I don't quite have it, I have think "green....ah...what's GREEN...." and then I find I need to go to the sentence I learned it in "黄色と白と緑のコントラストが素晴らしいです" to find it in my head. I'm guessing too that it is also more a problem if the word is buried deep in the sentence, so 黄色 might pop into my head with less trouble, but 緑 is hiding behind the other words. Now if I study 緑 by itself, or it pops up in in other sentences, I imagine I would never need to do this, or it would correct over time by hearing this word I already "know" in the wild a bunch.
And like you I don't pay much attention to the English translations in the cards. I just try to focus on the meaning of things and the flow of the japanese in the sentence (I sometimes even erase the English).