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+--- Thread: 辻 5 strokes? (/thread-4424.html)
辻 5 strokes? - Chern - 2009-11-16
Hello world... Ahh this is embarrassing I checked everywhere but I can't seem to find why does this kanji have only one "drop" in the book but 2 here (and from what I saw everywhere on the net).
Now I'm fine if it's just a printing mistake... but then... How can it be 5 strokes ? Is this kanji some kind of exception where the "road" primitive is written with the 2 bottom parts as one ? (first drop second drop and then the last part in one go opposed to the usual 2?)
I'm sorry if it's not the right place to post... it's my very first post here ^^'
辻 5 strokes? - yudantaiteki - 2009-11-16
The bottom-left part of that kanji can be either 2 or 3 strokes depending on what dictionary or book you are using, but it should be consistent -- if RTK has 2 everywhere else, then it should be 2 there as well, if it says 3 it's probably just a mistake.
辻 5 strokes? - Chern - 2009-11-16
In the book you do the left part as : drop + "3" + the tail . it seems consistent with everything -> 迅 has correctly 6 strokes. (fishhook as 1, needle as 2 , drop as 1 and the 3 (the part before the tail looks like a 3 to me when hand written)+tail as another 2).
But in 辻 it writes 5 strokes on this site (and my writing recognition software also considers it as 5). However that is only possible if your write the "3" and the tail in on single go.
That's what troubles me, it seems to be an exception as in every other kanji, to get the right stroke count you write the "3" and it's "tail" in two strokes (sorry for the poor images I don't know how to describe it better). I hope I'm being clear : O
辻 5 strokes? - Delina - 2009-11-16
If I'm not mistaken, that character should have only one drop. My browser shows it as having only one drop, even when you wrote it in your post above.
Is it possible that you are using a Chinese font in your browser? That could cause the kanji to appear with two drops. If that's the case, check out these threads:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=3339
辻 5 strokes? - yudantaiteki - 2009-11-16
Like I said, you can consider it either 2 or 3 strokes, but there's no difference between the element in 辻 and 迅; they should both be written with the same number.
辻 5 strokes? - magamo - 2009-11-16
The "one or two drops on the top left" + "3" + "`-" in some kanji such as 辻, 道, and 逢 is called しんにゅう (also known as しんにょう). If I remember correctly, there is no two-drop version in the joyo kanji list. They're usually the older versions of current one-drop kanji or non-joyo kanji. You might be seeing the two-drop versions depending on your fonts.
The number of strokes of しんにゅう is 3 if it has only one drop on the top left, so the current version of 辻 has 2 (for 十) + 3 = 5 strokes. My kanji dictionary lists the two-drop しんにょう in the 4 stroke primitive section.
辻 5 strokes? - liosama - 2009-11-16
辵 is the original radical as you can see. So the two drops at the top may explain why some dictionaries list it, but as magamo mentioned they have all been simplified to show 1 drop. Even in Chinese they write one drop I think, but they consider the third wiggle as a separate stroke.
http://chineseetymology.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=%E8%BE%B5&submitButton1=Etymology
So don't worry too much. Some dictionaries even list the road radical as 2 strokes, drop + 1 final wiggle which is how I actually end up writing it, and most people would I think. No one really 'lifts' their pencil up after starting on the 2nd stroke.
辻 5 strokes? - Chern - 2009-11-16
Delina Wrote:If I'm not mistaken, that character should have only one drop. My browser shows it as having only one drop, even when you wrote it in your post above.Ooook I understand the confusion now... Wow this is interesting... I'm using firefox actually, and even when set to japanese it shows the 2 drops .... Chrome however shows it as 1 drop... Under firefox I tried Unicode UTF 8 (the standard stuff I use) when I set to specific japanese encoding it shows non sense. And on auto detect japanese it still shows as 2 drops... Your link seems to focus on Opera... Is there a way to correct this problem in Firefox ? There is no Rikaichan plug in for Chrome : /
Is it possible that you are using a Chinese font in your browser? That could cause the kanji to appear with two drops. If that's the case, check out these threads:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=3339
Thank you very much for all the responses ! ^^'
Or maybe I shouldn't care like some said? I'm at kanji #280 and it's the first time I had this problem. (weird that it shows 1 drop for ALL the other kanji XD). I could just stick to 1 drop and remember that firefox messes up on this one I guess?
辻 5 strokes? - Koos83 - 2009-11-17
I also use Firefox and I see it as one drop. And don't worry; the road primitive will come back so much more, that you'll not even remember it had 2 drops in one of your frames.
辻 5 strokes? - Katsuo - 2009-11-17
Chern Wrote:[Under firefox I tried Unicode UTF 8 (the standard stuff I use) when I set to specific japanese encoding it shows non sense. And on auto detect japanese it still shows as 2 drops... Your link seems to focus on Opera... Is there a way to correct this problem in Firefox ? There is no Rikaichan plug in for ChromeThe number of "drops" you see in 辻 depends on the font you are using. You can change the font of the browser program to your taste in its "Preferences" section.
(If you want to add more some Japanese fonts to your computer, check out fellow member onafarm's website)
辻 5 strokes? - Transparent_Aluminium - 2009-11-17
Here's a link to the SOD diagram from kanjidic for those who want to see the 5 strokes version:
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?163192_%C4%D4
辻 5 strokes? - Delina - 2009-11-17
I'm also using Firefox. I'm at work so I have a limited font selection, but I've been using Arial Unicode MS and while I kinda hate that font, it does display Japanese characters with the correct stroke numbers and styles.
To set this, go to Tools -> Options and choose the 'Content' icon. (In my Firefox the icon displays the character for 'page'.) In the Fonts and Colors box, click the Advanced button (to the right of the font and size bars). Choose Japanese from the top box, and pick the font you want from each of the drop-downs below. Keep in mind that not every font will be able to produce Japanese characters (but follow Katsuo's link to get more).
If this still doesn't work, your browser might not be recognizing that the page should use your chosen Japanese fonts. My settings (under View -> Character Encoding) is Auto-detect Off, Western ISO. Not sure why that works, but it's worth a shot.
辻 5 strokes? - Chern - 2009-11-17
Delina Wrote:I'm also using Firefox. I'm at work so I have a limited font selection, but I've been using Arial Unicode MS and while I kinda hate that font, it does display Japanese characters with the correct stroke numbers and styles.Got it!!!! Aaah thank you very much ! ^^' It works ! I finally see it as 1 drop!
To set this, go to Tools -> Options and choose the 'Content' icon. (In my Firefox the icon displays the character for 'page'.) In the Fonts and Colors box, click the Advanced button (to the right of the font and size bars). Choose Japanese from the top box, and pick the font you want from each of the drop-downs below. Keep in mind that not every font will be able to produce Japanese characters (but follow Katsuo's link to get more).
If this still doesn't work, your browser might not be recognizing that the page should use your chosen Japanese fonts. My settings (under View -> Character Encoding) is Auto-detect Off, Western ISO. Not sure why that works, but it's worth a shot.
Thank you so much for all the response! You've all been great ^^' I ll go check that webpage with additional fonts as soon as I get some free time : D
Thanks again ^^' And by the way if you check the stories, it seems that I wasn't the only one with this problem as some people created stories to *remember* the second stroke for this character : P
辻 5 strokes? - JimmySeal - 2009-11-18
yudantaiteki Wrote:Like I said, you can consider it either 2 or 3 strokes, but there's no difference between the element in 辻 and 迅; they should both be written with the same number.The radical is 3 strokes with one drop or 4 strokes with 2 drops. It is never merely 2 strokes and any dictionary that lists it as 2 is incorrect.
The 2 drop version of 辻 is part of the revised JIS standard, and by "fixing" your browser to show it with one drop you are actually reverting to an outdated version.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/JIS_X_0213#JIS_X_0213:2004.E3.81.AE.E6.94.B9.E6.AD.A3
辻 5 strokes? - Koos83 - 2009-11-18
JimmySeal Wrote:So it has to be 2 drops after all?yudantaiteki Wrote:Like I said, you can consider it either 2 or 3 strokes, but there's no difference between the element in 辻 and 迅; they should both be written with the same number.The radical is 3 strokes with one drop or 4 strokes with 2 drops. It is never merely 2 strokes and any dictionary that lists it as 2 is incorrect.
The 2 drop version of 辻 is part of the revised JIS standard, and by "fixing" your browser to show it with one drop you are actually reverting to an outdated version.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/JIS_X_0213#JIS_X_0213:2004.E3.81.AE.E6.94.B9.E6.AD.A3
辻 5 strokes? - Katsuo - 2009-11-18
Koos83 Wrote:So it has to be 2 drops after all?That's the new standard. If you take the upper levels of the KanKen test both forms are acceptable, I believe.
Many other characters are also slightly different in the new JIS standard. To get an idea of these changes, paste the block of kanji below into a wordprocessing program and then select all and switch between two suitable fonts. It's best to choose the older and newer versions of the same font; on a Mac this would be say, "Hiragino Kaku Gothic Pro" and "Hiragino Kaku Gothic ProN", or "Hiragino Mincho Pro" and "Hiragino Mincho ProN", i.e. look for the added "N".
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辻 5 strokes? - Chern - 2009-11-18
:O So complicated... So it's 2 drops after all... Oh well I'm glad I asked, quite enlightening :O
辻 5 strokes? - Koos83 - 2009-11-18
Chern Wrote::O So complicated... So it's 2 drops after all... Oh well I'm glad I asked, quite enlightening :OAgreeing with all of that. XD
辻 5 strokes? - magamo - 2009-11-18
Chern Wrote::O So complicated... So it's 2 drops after all... Oh well I'm glad I asked, quite enlightening :O常用漢字表 (Jouyou kanji) and JIS are different. The former is the guide to kanji characters announced officially by the Japanese Ministry of Education. The latter is short for Japanese Industrial Standards and specifies the standards used for industrial activities in Japan. JIS has multiple Japanese character lists. JIS is NOT a set of rules manufactures must follow. It's "standards" lots of makers use. Since computers and such should be able to handle a lot more than 常用, their kanji lists are quite different from the official guide.
As I already said, Jouyou kanji has no two drop versions. And some kanji such as 辻 aren't included in the official list in the first place, so there is no "official" version when it comes to 辻. Some common fonts for printed materials use the two drop version, and people usually use one drop version for handwriting. I heard the more common version for the name of people, i.e., 辻-san, was the one drop one, but there are 辻-san with two drops too.
In computers and electronic dictionaries, fonts and stuff usually follow one of JIS lists. VISTA is following JIS2004 kanji list, which only has two drop version. XP follows an older JIS list that has one drop 辻. Other OSes for personal computers and other products such as electronic dictionaries, game consoles etc. may be using another JIS list or may not be following any of JIS kanji lists at all.
辻 5 strokes? - Chern - 2009-11-19
Thank you for all those precious informations! : O
辻 5 strokes? - Koos83 - 2009-11-21
I guess it's how some people write 'a' as a circle with a line to its right, and some people write it as a smaller circle with a line over the top (as the 'a' in this font). But we can read and understand both.
辻 5 strokes? - austn3 - 2009-12-16
So for stroke count is it just your choice? I see 辻 listed as 4 or 5 strokes. What would it be in a real kanji dictionary? And what about something like 箸? I'd never seen the 9 stroke "love doll" till today in vista. All the stroke counts I see show this as 15(with the drop) except for RTK. So even though most fonts render it as 14, would you just have to know that it could have an extra stroke when you look it up?