Looks like John beat out Khatz.

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - Printable Version

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Looks like John beat out Khatz. - mezbup - 2009-11-12

ジョンは一年で日本語がすらすら話せて、新聞が楽に読めるようになったのだから、語学の天才と言わざるを得ない。

"Since John was able to speak Japanese fluently and read newpapers with ease in one year we cannot help calling him a genius of language learning."

~from the dictionary of grammar

XD

Seriously though, For those that have been studying for a year or more, How much did you learn or feel like you learned in your first complete year of study In terms of ability to speak, listen and read?

Speaking = So Shit.
Listening = Intermediate? Can watch movies, dorama and anime with no subs and get what's going on.
Reading = Intermediate there again. Can read probably about 1110 min but i'd say closer to 1300. Reading generally takes dictionary lookups still but much MUCH less frequent. Basic - lower intermediate materials can be read usually without a dictionary.

The second question: What time frame are you aiming for that you think you will realistically achieve to complete you're Japanese learning goals in? NB Fluency for the sake of this thread shall mean whatever it means to ones own individual standard.

Personally I'm aiming at achieving Fluency by the end of next year. KanKen 2kyuu is on my list of things to work towards in that time frame too. Basically, a very high level of spoken output and a very strong ability to read Smile

I feel like the first year of study has just been the prep work for the second year where it shall all come together.

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - Nyanda - 2009-11-12

I feel like I totally wasted my first year.

Speaking: Very poor.
I still am quite poor at speaking (In conversation as oppossed to reading out loud) because I only recently built up the courage to speak with natives over skype.
Oh how I wish I had done that earlier lol.

Listening: Intermediate(?)
As long as I know the words I can listen just fine, although super long sentences sometimes get me.
Words which I don't know I can the majority of the time hear correctly and look up (Although obviously I still make mistakes with this)

Reading: Lower intermediate (If i had to guess a level)
Since starting kanji in context my reading and vocab has just shot through the roof.
Again, it's something I wish I had started when I had a grasp on my basic grammar.

Writing: ugh.
In my first year I attempted RTK, twice.
My second attempt I reached 1980 kanji, and then I went to Japan. Reviews piled up when I got back and I forgot how to write everything lol.
I'm on my third time through now.

Goals that I am setting myself to improve on my miserable perfomance from last year are:
JLPT 1 (Even though it isn't exactly a test of true fluency, but w/e)
Like Mezbup - Kanken 2kyuu
Get to a stage where I can speak without stopping and correcing myself every 5 words - In other words, aquire a half decent speaking ability.

Like I said at the start of this post, my first year was a total waste.
I learned next to nothing to be honest, although if I hadn't fumbled around in my first year I probably never would have built up the resources and experience I have now.

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - Codexus - 2009-11-12

mezbup Wrote:Seriously though, For those that have been studying for a year or more, How much did you learn or feel like you learned in your first complete year of study In terms of ability to speak, listen and read?

I guess I'm about at one year's worth of studying spread out over two.

Speaking = Non-existant. Don't care for now.
Listening = Very poor. I understand the easy parts but I get lost as soon as it gets more interesting.
Reading = I can read things like not too difficult manga and children novels with a dictionary. Still it's not very fast and I'm still lacking tons of vocabulary (I know only about 5000 words).

mezbup Wrote:The second question: What time frame are you aiming for that you think you will realistically achieve to complete you're Japanese learning goals in?

Goal: "near native-like" understanding of all media (movies, web, news, novels). Probably something like 5 years of "studying" (SRS, looking up words all the time) followed by as many of mostly just enjoying lots of media to solidify the knowledge and fill in the gaps. So a decade in total.

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - wccrawford - 2009-11-12

I started studying about 2 years ago now, I think. I've been -really- lazy about it.

At one year, I could barely (barely!) read the easiest mangas, using a dictionary. I could catch about 1 word in 10 in an anime, but only if the subs were on. Speaking skill was nonexistant, vocabulary was crap. When I looked up a word in the dictionary, the definition would disappear from my head before I got to the next page of the book.

At 2 years, I can read shonen mangas (Naruto, One Piece) fairly well and only need a dictionary for new words that are central to what's going on. But when I look up a word, it usually sticks pretty well, sometimes permanently. I can watch anime without subs, but it's still frustrating and I only understand about 1/3 of what's being said and it's not enough to really follow what's going on. I still haven't tried speaking, but I think I could perform basic functions necessary for survival.

In another year, I expect to be reading mangas with ease and reading books with a dictionary.

In 2 more years, I expect to have hit my goal: Reading books with ease and speaking/writing to native speakers on the internet for fun, rather than study purposes.

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - captal - 2009-11-12

Interesting question. Are we measuring by hours or by days? From the first hiragana or word you learned, or from when you started studying/entered uni?

If we count from the first hiragana I learned, then that's been 2.5 years (woah...), but I didn't really start studying until I came to Japan in August of last year- that's 15 months of "study"- sometimes a lot and sometimes not much. It's funny how much my view on Japanese as a language has changed in the time I've studied it. When I started I thought it would be cool to learn a 2nd language, now it's this... monster that I'm in the middle of.

It's still pretty motivational to go from not being able to make anything other than basic sentences to holding my own in conversations and reading native material in 15 months. I expect my progress over the next 15 months to be slower since I'm moving back to Australia and I won't have as much passive input and speaking practice (though I'm taking the gf with- only for study of course!). I still think that in the next year or so I'll be able to comfortably read native fiction books, as I'm reading one of Murakami's books now and getting a lot of it (though I have read it in English). Reading native fiction is one of my main goals in Japanese as it is a big hobby of mine in English.

I'm pretty lazy, but I've come to accept that and move at my own pace. 100-150 cards in Anki everyday and whatever else I feel like- games, books, TV, visiting the pubs. My progress isn't going to be as fast as some of the people on here, but I tried that push, push, push mentality and it just wore me out and didn't make it fun.

As for listening- it's gotten a lot better since I've been in Japan, but I still have a long way to go. I'm not sure when I'll be comfortable with it.

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - Nukemarine - 2009-11-12

I'm one of those "What counts as starting" type guys. Do we qualify the time on Heisig since that could have been applied to Chinese?

So depending on how you look at it, the year after:

I got stationed in Okinawa and took a class in Japanese (May 1996) - Yeah, that's like saying the 3rd grade music class got me to Carnegie. Anyway, year after that I could eat with chopsticks and maybe count to ten.

I came to Japan (Jan 2007) - May count, since I started up Rosetta Stone then picked up JFBP. Year after that, was just "finishing" RTK, and moving on to doing UBJG. Could speak basic phrases via Pimsleur

I started RTK (Jun 2007) - Year after, I could have basic conversation and read basic things, but during that time were 4 months or more of "down time". I still personally count June '07 as my starting point in actually learning Japanese. Yes, RevTK forums has been that big of an influence.

I started UBJG ie actual Japanese study after RTK (Jan 2008) - Watch dramas with Japanese subtitles and follow along, read manga for enjoyment, sing Karaoke and be mistaken for native (some of the time).

Not to mention, there's been starts and stops and back pedaling in all of this. Kind of the reason I like to think in hours of actual study, and not total time since I started. Still, it's all a growing experience.

One year? Fuck John.

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - wildweathel - 2009-11-12

Well, technically, it's been about seven years since I first got my hands on some ポケットモンスター cards and tried to puzzle them out with print dictionaries, so yeah, I guess I'm qualified to say something...

Actually, it's only been about 4 months since I decided to stop moping, turn off the subs, and actually learn this thing, so I'm not going to talk about my results as much as expectations in foreign language acquisition.

Frankly, most people have unrealistic expectations about language learning that come from an inflated view of their native language skills. You don't want to correct yourself every couple of sentences? Try doing that in your native language! Most people are uncomfortable with public speaking, right? Of course! They're not very good at it, they've got their fragile egos to protect, so they avoid it like typical adults.

I didn't become even a passably-good speaker until I joined my high-school debate team. I've spent the majority of my life (so far) unable to express myself through writing. Output is hard. Even natives suck.

So, what's the difference? Obviously, natives really are really good at input. Scary good. Better than the best dictionaries or grammars can capture, despite never taking a class. (They get that way by practicing input. You can, too.) Also, natives have this inflated view of their own skill. But, most importantly:

Output only happens effortlessly. You find your voice most clearly when you forget yourself.

Monologuing is hard, everyone knows that. You will stand up here and say something awesome. Now go to it! Everything that happens is under your control. Scary, hunh?

Dialogue is easier. Why? Well, it's interactive. There's this thing called "the conversation" going on, and you can pay attention to it, not to "what am I supposed to say now?" However, the effect is incomplete. Something happens called the "awkward silence," when basically, you have two people both trying to listen. Nothing happens. Uhhh. Man, I must suck at speaking.

Now, what's the ideal environment for output? One where you, individually can be silent without killing the conversation. One where you have a group of people talking about something interesting. Play games, have arguments, laugh at stupid movies. Now, when you think about your childhood, aren't those exactly the times when you spoke most naturally? Why should language exchange--so very different--do the same thing?

It's true that that environment will not "test" your output ability. It will nurture it, but you won't be able to say "I spoke 20% of the time, which is up from last weeks 18%. I must be improving." I think it's best to get over a quantitative or even qualitative approach to measuring success and just, you know, live in the present moment.

Of course, if you really want excellent monologue and dialogue skills, practice them. But realize that those are advanced things, and that the fundamentals of output are learned elsewhere.

Besides, results are hard to measure. I'm doing pretty much the same things (input-wise) as all you more advanced students, just at a lower level. As true as it is, it's not helpful for me to say "well, I'm reading short stories now and not completely understanding them, and in eight months I hope to still be reading short stories and not completely understanding them." Sounds like no progress, might feel like no progress. All the progress is hiding out of sight, so I'm just not gonna worry about it.

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - ruiner - 2009-11-12

If I think of having started studying grammar/vocab/sentences/listening/speaking from June '08, I feel like I'm a few months behind schedule, so I'm going to say the level of proficiency I want June '11. I never believed Khatz's claims, but I did feel like ~2 years was a good timeframe to try and get 'really proficient'. I look back and realize I could have done things much more quickly at the beginning (ie I wouldn't have separated the RTK phase from 10/07 to 04/08), but hey, continuing one's 'learning how to learn better' is a necessity, plus this forum and its ideas were both very different back then. ;p JLPT-wise, I'm thinking I'll probably take that next December or the one after that (since I've got things to do that'll keep me in this country till 2012 anyways--at least till the world ends).

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - Hashiriya - 2009-11-12

although i studied off and on for short spurts in the past, i have considered last October as my true beginning of "real" studying of Japanese. here is where i feel like so far:

listening: pretty darn good considering the amount of tvants and justin.tv i watch. i can follow just about anything including news and don`t mind watching everything without subtitles. the words that i don`t know, usually what is happening on the screen fills it in for me... i really recommend studying with dual-screen monitors for this reason... so you can always watch while you study.

reading/writing: i can read around 900 kanji (for their Japanese on and kun readings) i know only the English meanings for quite a few more. as far as writing, i can write about 400 kanji ATM but i want my writing to be as good as my reading is by the end of the year.

speaking: i can, but very basically... the more i work on that huge 8000+ sentence anki grammar file, the better i get. the problem is not my lack of vocab, but a lack of grammar

EDIT: if i didn`t have as many time restraints as i do now, and only focused on Japanese... I would find learning Japanese in a year as not so bad... i study actively about 2 hours every day on Anki, but i could see myself do 8-10 if i locked my self in my room and had people slide the food under the door etc. and without going to college or work.

for the way i am studying now, i say i have around 2 more years to go before i consider myself to be fluent

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - ropsta - 2009-11-12

Fluent. I 'can' correct natives' errors afterall Wink

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - YogaSpirit - 2009-11-12

I guess that reading the posts above may plunge some in a depressive mood. Formulating that comment with other words, I would say: Japanese truly seems to be one language that only the bravest, marathonian self-learners can get to develop intimacy with. I'm trying to be part of them, without sacrifying the other parts of my life. Not an easy task and some kind of masochistic behavior is surely required here.

By the way, my goal is basically to read native Japanese fiction, both short-stories and novels.

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - randomkrazy - 2009-11-12

Hm. I don't know who John is but what did he do? haha

I think the most important thing that Khatz does is motivate people to actually learn. A big problem is that most people just don't have the initial drive or make up some lame ass excuse not to start or try hard.

I started studying in 2007 but only studied for 4 months when I studied abroad here in Japan. After that I didn't study at all until I came back again in August 2008. Then I started RTK, and finished but stopped reviewing. I didn't start sentence mining until maybe April this year and my reading, listening, and speaking ability has grown exponentially.

I think RTK was good, but when you live in the country I feel its more important to be able to understand what people say and being able to speak than to be able to read some bizarre kanji that rarely comes up. That's part of the reason I stopped reviewing Kanji. I will get back to it, but I remember Khatz saying one of the most important things is to have fun in your language, and review kanji for me is just work not fun so I put it on pause for now.

Listening: My listening is leagues above my speaking. I can watch anime or news or TV shows and probably understand 70% depending on what's going on. Kids shows are no problem.

Reading/Writing: Probably slightly better than my speaking because I can see a kanji and understand the meaning. Also you can read at your own pace where as listening is dictated by the speakers pace. As for writing, how often do you actually write things. I know its important to have that skill but for me I rather focus on reading for now because I do alot more reading than actual handwriting.

Speaking: Probably my weakest point next to handwriting. Sometimes I find that in conversations I'll get my response once the topic has moved on. I can communicate my point across but not as well as I can in my native language. I want to improve my speaking until I feel like I'm getting exactly what I want to say across.

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - Squintox - 2009-11-13

Well, I'm not studying JP anymore, but it was like this after 365 days (June 20, 2008 - June 20, 2009):

Listening - being a drama-addict, this was my best skill, I could follow dramas and know what's going on and could generally get the gist of every sentence.

Reading - 'Twas pretty poor, I'd probably do 4-10 dictionary look-ups for every page of manga (containing ~30 words).

Speaking - Like most people, non-existant

Writing - also pretty non-existant, though I was pretty 上手 at Japlish ;D

Goals: Well... maybe a couple of years after Korean (which will probably take 3-4 years from now), I'll go back to Japanese and try to reach for a native level. I'm trying my best not to think about what I'll do in the future - just trust my future-self to know what to do next.

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - Aijin - 2009-11-13

Well, after about a year I was able to say し. My mom liked to think that I meant 四, but my dad, probably reflecting on the demise of sex life after a child was born, was quite convinced I meant 死.

Either way, after a few more weeks I was able to say 母 and 父, and the next few years progressed much more smoothly. Took about a decade or so to get well into kanji, but it's been smooth sailing since then.

Wink

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - captal - 2009-11-13

A decade! You're such a slow learner Aijin! Wink

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - mezbup - 2009-11-13

Aijin Wrote:Well, after about a year I was able to say し. My mom liked to think that I meant 四, but my dad, probably reflecting on the demise of sex life after a child was born, was quite convinced I meant 死.

LOLLLL

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - Babyrat - 2009-11-15

Sorry for such a stupid question, but whos John?!

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - Nukemarine - 2009-11-15

Babyrat Wrote:Sorry for such a stupid question, but whos John?!

If you read the first post, you'll see "John" is an imaginary character in an example sentence. The sentence says John become FLUENT in Japanese in ONE YEAR. The thread is not debating the feasibility of such a thing, just wondering what each of us accomplished in one year of starting Japanese learning.

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - yukamina - 2009-11-15

Nukemarine Wrote:
Babyrat Wrote:Sorry for such a stupid question, but whos John?!
If you read the first post, you'll see "John" is an imaginary character in an example sentence. The sentence says John become FLUENT in Japanese in ONE YEAR. The thread is not debating the feasibility of such a thing, just wondering what each of us accomplished in one year of starting Japanese learning.

Oh...Ha ha... I thought that sentence was from the introduction of the book, talking about someone who helped make it!

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - chamcham - 2009-11-15

I've found out where Khatz has been hiding these days.....

He's in Brooklyn playing at Yu-Gi-Oh tournaments (the guy standing with the gray hoodie).

http://www.kingsgames.com/images/floor2-2.JPG

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - spleenlol - 2009-11-15

chamcham Wrote:I've found out where Khatz has been hiding these days.....

He's in Brooklyn playing at Yu-Gi-Oh tournaments (the guy standing with the gray hoodie).

http://www.kingsgames.com/images/floor2-2.JPG

LOL he looks like he doesn't know what he is doing.

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - vinniram - 2009-12-06

who is john?

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - mezbup - 2009-12-06

vinniram Wrote:who is john?

someone who reads things thoroughly.

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - captal - 2009-12-06

mezbup Wrote:
vinniram Wrote:who is john?
someone who reads things thoroughly.

Nice

Looks like John beat out Khatz. - Blahah - 2009-12-06

I've been attempting to learn since summer 2008, but my progress has been painfully slow. I can write and recognise the meaning of about 1300 kanji thanks to spending way too long reviewing RTK anki cards. I watch anime and understand lots of the words and am just now starting to get whole sentences or conversations (occasionally). I set out thinking I would easily hit fluency in 18 months, but was woefully underestimating both my own laziness and how much other stuff would start happening in my life.

I used to blame my busy life for my lack of progress but right now I'm working 55 hours a week (nights) and going to uni during the day, and making more progress on my japanese than ever before. Just upping my input has made a huge difference. Listening to podcasts has helped, along with watching anime on a portable media player whenver I get a chance. Still got the subs on, but it's helping me get my head around grammar in a useful way.