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Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - Jarvik7 - 2010-06-22
There is a Buddhist teaching that suggests that by killing an animal you are helping it out of one of the lower states of samsara. I am essentially a boddhisattva by eating meat! This by extension also justifies killing of the disabled, elderly, and terminally ill. Actually it justifies killing normal people too, since they might be reborn into one of the heavens.
There is another one that says by acting immorally (ex: eating meat) you are establishing a reverse connection to Buddha, which is still a connection, so you're still getting brownie points.
All of the major Buddhism sects are populist, so it's hard to really look for them for much guidance. All you need to do to escape the cycle is say 南無阿弥陀仏 one time and you're out anyways regardless of behaviour (in the most popular sect).
Quote:For milk: this may suprise you (it suprised me), but cows are not magical milk machines. They do not spontaneously produce milk. Cows, like every other mammal, only produce milk when they are pregnant. Just like in humans.Where did you get this fact? Pregnancy triggers lactation, but it's not the sole trigger.
ex:
-men can lactate
-women will continue lactating indefinitely after giving birth, until they stop milking (the act of breastfeeding triggers chemical releases which keeps the lactation cycle going. When a woman stops breastfeeding she will stop producing milk). Wet nurses breastfeed the young of others for years without requiring a yearly knock-up.
Did you actually think about what you wrote? Do you think that human women are still pregnant even after they give birth? Even IF cows only produced milk while pregnant, it would be much cheaper and simpler to simply stimulate it with drugs instead of all the expense of insemination, extra food bringing the calf to term, birth, etc etc.
Cows are given drugs to increase the rate of milk production (in farms in some countries), but they aren't kept in some cycle of continuous pregnancy since it's not required. Antibiotics kill bacteria btw, they do not stimulate the production of milk. They are given hormones to increase production.
Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - thecite - 2010-06-22
bodhisamaya Wrote:If you are a farmer and you raise a pig or cow with love and kindness its whole life, giving it a far superior and longer life than what it would have had in the wild, then kill it for meat humanely, perhaps an instantaneous death by bullet to the head, would that be immoral? .Consider this:
If a farmer raised his son with love and kindness his whole life, giving him a far longer and fuller life than in the wild, then kills him 'humanely' with a bullet to the head, would that be immoral?
Of course it would! It isn't the farmer's right to decided whether the pig or his son lives or dies, they both have the right to their own life.
Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - mezbup - 2010-06-22
...and now for something completely different.
Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - thecite - 2010-06-22
Jarvik7 Wrote:Cows are given drugs to increase the rate of milk production, but they aren't kept in some cycle of continuous pregnancy.I was only looking to make a comparison that is easy to understand.
Cows most certainly are kept in a continuous state of pregnancy in order to produce milk, I implore you to investigate it.
C-section is also common way to remove the calf, so the mother and child don't have any time to connect. There's a movie on the food industry called 'Our Daily Bread' which has a section that shows the process.
Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - bodhisamaya - 2010-06-22
There is one catch all behavioral guideline that covers most everything one would normally attribute to acting "morally". Don't take what has not been offered to you. Life is the most important thing you can take from anyone. It kind of pisses beings off when you take their life. This anger can actually lead them into a lower rebirth (it is said). Killing animals creates the karmic impression in one's mind of animalistic behavior (eat who you meet), which lead to actually being reborn in the animal rhelm as a hunter and the hunted. So in a way, due to habitual tendencies, if there is such a thing as morality, animals are less moral. Maybe the definition of morality might more appropriately be defined as degree of self-preservation motivation.
Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - Jarvik7 - 2010-06-22
thecite Wrote:No, they aren't. They are impregnated when the farmer wants a calf. If a cow isn't lactating it can be started with hormones. If they aren't lactating enough production can be increased with more hormones.Jarvik7 Wrote:Cows are given drugs to increase the rate of milk production, but they aren't kept in some cycle of continuous pregnancy.I was only looking to make a comparison that is easy to understand.
Cows most certainly are kept in a continuous state of pregnancy in order to produce milk, I implore you to investigate it.
At most a farmer would impregnate a cow once to start milk production in a region which bans hormone use, but once lactation starts it does not need "maintenance-pregnancy" as long as it is regularly milked.
You do realize that the films you watched are propaganda filled with half truths to try to convert watchers right? They are not unbiased documentaries.
Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - bodhisamaya - 2010-06-22
thecite Wrote:Actually, if the farmer did as you said, not only extending his son's life but making it a better quality life, I would consider the man a saint for having the courage to one day kill his own son for said purpose.bodhisamaya Wrote:If you are a farmer and you raise a pig or cow with love and kindness its whole life, giving it a far superior and longer life than what it would have had in the wild, then kill it for meat humanely, perhaps an instantaneous death by bullet to the head, would that be immoral? .Consider this:
If a farmer raised his son with love and kindness his whole life, giving him a far longer and fuller life than in the wild, then kills him 'humanely' with a bullet to the head, would that be immoral?
Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - thecite - 2010-06-22
Jarvik7 Wrote:Second result on google for "milk production impregnate":thecite Wrote:No, they aren't. They are impregnated when the farmer wants a calf. If a cow isn't lactating it can be started with hormones. If they aren't lactating enough production can be increased with more hormones.Jarvik7 Wrote:Cows are given drugs to increase the rate of milk production, but they aren't kept in some cycle of continuous pregnancy.I was only looking to make a comparison that is easy to understand.
Cows most certainly are kept in a continuous state of pregnancy in order to produce milk, I implore you to investigate it.
At most a farmer would impregnate a cow once to start milk production in a region which bans hormone use, but once lactation starts it does not need "maintenance-pregnancy" as long as it is regularly milked.
You do realize that the films you watched are propaganda filled with half truths to try to convert watchers right? They are not unbiased documentaries.
http://www.vegsoc.org/info/cattle.html
Unless you have any actual experience in dairy production that I'm not aware of, I see no reason to believe that the general stream of information available on this subject is wrong.
Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - bodhisamaya - 2010-06-22
Jarvik7 Wrote:There is a Buddhist teaching that suggests that by killing an animal you are helping it out of one of the lower states of samsara. I am essentially a boddhisattva by eating meat! This by extension also justifies killing of the disabled, elderly, and terminally ill. Actually it justifies killing normal people too, since they might be reborn into one of the heavens.Bodhisattvas take a vow never to enter into heaven. Though this is actually a way of protecting from the intense suffering that coincides with having one day exhausted the karma that led to that rebirth. (It is said) gods become so angry at this due to their pride and jealousy, they often fall straight to the hell realms (very similar to the 1/3 of the angels falling from heaven in the Bible). Aiding a being into a rebirth as a god (heaven) creates long term suffering for that being.
Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - atreya - 2010-06-22
mezbup Wrote:...and now for something completely different.Hurray for Monty Python!
Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - Eikyu - 2010-06-22
@Bodhi Are you saying that reaching nirvana is a bad thing because then you're sure to fall back into hell? I don't really understand your last post. Is it like when you do good stuff you build up karma but then being in the heavenly realm burns it up badly and when you have no more you're going straight to hell? That would be crazy.
Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - Evil_Dragon - 2010-06-22
As far as I remember, gods did not reach nirvana yet. Also apparently it's a lot harder for them to reach enlightenment.
Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - smartazjb0y - 2010-06-22
On the subject of eating other people: A Modest Proposal, by Jonathan Swift.
Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - groovee_grl - 2010-06-22
thecite Wrote:If I could ask one thing of you, I sincerely implore you to watch the movie 'Earthlings', it will open your eyes to the barbarity of animal industries (it's narrated by Joaquin Phoenix!):Totally off topic, but I love how you've been going on about morality and then post a link to the Pirate Bay....
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5346640/Earthlings_%5B2006%5D_%5BSpecial_Extended_Edition%5D_DvDrip_%5BEng%5D___12_l
Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - masaman - 2010-06-22
Why is it OK to kill vegetables? insects? bacteria?
Some extremely devoted Jains in India refuse to eat and drink, then die in order not to kill ANY life form. But aren't they still killing themselves?
Isn't it original sin that we are bound to kill something?
In any case, if I wanted to change someone's "taste", I wouldn't employ a holier-than-thee-I-will-educate-the-ignorants attitude, or create a money raking TV show.
Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - genini1 - 2010-06-22
At its base, pain can be viewed as a warning to the organism that
experiences it, that it's life and/or ability to propagate its
genetic heritage is under threat. It can be argued that organisms
are essentially [as some wag once said] "DNA's way of making more
DNA." Virtually ALL organisms have sensory mechanisms that are
aimed at warning the individual of threats to life and/or repro-
duction, thus, while plants probably can't "feel pain" (as defined
in human dictionaries), plants can certainly sense their environment
and react in ways that are clearly intended to minimize threats to
life and/or reproduction: threats that humans would interpret as
painful. In other words, whatever one chooses to call it, plants
certainly experience the *functional equivalent* of that which we
humans call "pain", as do essentially all other organisms.
From another forum, I think I'll enjoy my salad more now that I now it was harvested suffering.
Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - Thora - 2010-06-22
smartazjb0y Wrote:On the subject of eating other people: A Modest Proposal, by Jonathan Swift.Perfect. :-)
And a timely reminder that Tobb's and J7's faux-utilitarianism is digestible as a wind up. Those mischievous fellas.
Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - Burritolingus - 2010-06-22
ファブリス Wrote:Admin: Please create a separate "vegetarianism" topic to continue that discussion. This thread is about "environmentalists chasing japanese whaling fleet".A whale made off with my leg once. As a result, this ivory leg is what propels me; harpoons thrust in the sky. Aim directly for his crooked brow, and look him straight in the eye.
WHITE
WHALE
HOLY
GRAIL
Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - bodhisamaya - 2010-06-22
Eikyu Wrote:@Bodhi Are you saying that reaching nirvana is a bad thing because then you're sure to fall back into hell? I don't really understand your last post. Is it like when you do good stuff you build up karma but then being in the heavenly realm burns it up badly and when you have no more you're going straight to hell? That would be crazy.Evil Dragon is right. Gods have not reached enlightenment and it is impossible for them to do so in the heavenly rhelm because of sensual distractions and/or pride. They have built up an enormous amount of good karma, but little in the way of wisdom. A bodhisattva forever uses his built up good karma as a tool for easing the suffering of all beings by taking rebirths as a human.
His/her motivation is that he has had an infinite number of previous lifetimes. In each of those lifetimes he had a mother that loved and sacrificed everything for him. He might not recognize those previous mothers now who have become every sentient being in the universe in all rhelms of rebirth in this lifetime. So he treats every sentient being kindly with the motivation of repaying the compassion shown to him in that previous lifetime.
Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - bodhisamaya - 2010-06-22
Ice Cream,
It does go much further, but this is the simplest explanation. Most of us are not used to thinking in a truly selfless way and so sacrificing everything for all other sentient beings appears at first crazy. If one can relate to this basic teaching it is said to spark the latent altruistic motivation to become a bodhisattva.
Even if our mother was not skilled or appeared unkind in this lifetime, we are alive and have a precious human life, and so she did give us an invaluable gift.
Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - Eikyu - 2010-06-22
Thanks, I'm sure you've gained a bit of karma for giving this explanation. Bodhisattvas look like nice enough types. I wouldn't mind meeting one
. (btw I believe that it's realm, not rhelm).
Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - bodhisamaya - 2010-06-22
Ooops! Thanks Eikyu. Wonder why spell check didn't catch that :/
masaman Wrote:In any case, if I wanted to change someone's "taste", I wouldn't employ a holier-than-thee-I-will-educate-the-ignorants attitudeThis is why, even though I agree with them on principal, I deleted all of my vegan friends on myspace. They kept posting graphic slaughterhouse videos on my comment box.
Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - thecite - 2010-06-23
groovee_grl Wrote:The producers explicitly request for all viewers to distribute the movie to as many friends as possible, they even offer to watch and download it for free on their website:thecite Wrote:If I could ask one thing of you, I sincerely implore you to watch the movie 'Earthlings', it will open your eyes to the barbarity of animal industries (it's narrated by Joaquin Phoenix!):Totally off topic, but I love how you've been going on about morality and then post a link to the Pirate Bay....
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5346640/Earthlings_%5B2006%5D_%5BSpecial_Extended_Edition%5D_DvDrip_%5BEng%5D___12_l
http://www.earthlings.com/earthlings/video-full.php
Apart from that, I never claimed that I'm morally perfect, I'm simply trying hard.
Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - thecite - 2010-06-23
masaman Wrote:Why is it OK to kill vegetables? insects? bacteria?Because these life forms are not sentient, there's no logical reason to give these lifeforms rights. If a nonsentient lifeform such as a plant can possess rights, you could make a case for rocks possessing rights as well.
The reason animals have rights is because, exactly like us, they are sentient organisms that are not only in the world, but aware of it. They experience emotion, pain, and possess many of the same interests that we do. A rock or plant or bacterium on the other hand, possesses no interests.
Note: There is currently no conclusive answer as to whether insects are sentient or not. However, Veganism gives these creatures the benefit of the doubt by avoiding their exploitation as much as possible. Of course, there are cases in which it is almost possible to avoid killing insects; plant farming for example. Obviously humans need to eat to live, so all we can do is try our best not to kill them.
Ｗｈａｌｅ ｗａｒｓ - bodhisamaya - 2010-06-23
Why are insects not sentient?