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The KanKen Chronicles - JimmySeal - 2012-09-19
partner55083777 Wrote:erlog and everyone, thanks for all the advice. I've been thinking about it for a while, and I think I'm finally ready to take the plunge and buy a DS and the Kanken game. But first I have a couple questions.I've never tried 漢検DSトレーニング, but I quite like Kanken DS3. I did have a few complaints about it though:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?pid=88684#pid88684
As far as DS systems go, in my opinion 3DS would be the only sensible way to go, since all new software for the past year and forseeable future has required a 3DS and you'll be missing out on that.
I don't know how much the old systems are going for these days, but in my opinion, the original DS is big and clunky, DSi LL is big and expensive, and the only main difference between the DSi and DS Lite is that DSi has a downloadable software system that never took off.
So if you can get DS Lite for less money than DSi or DSi LL, I'd say go with that.
As for new vs. second hand, that depends on the price difference and the condition of the second hand systems. I bought mine new, but over the years it has worn out a bit and has trouble starting games sometimes. If the price difference isn't too big, I'd say go with a new one.
The KanKen Chronicles - erlog - 2012-10-28
Sorry for the thread necromancy here. I haven't been on this forum for a while because I decided to bury myself in studying instead of arguing about studying on the internet so much. It was becoming a bad habit.
I took Kanji Kentei ３級・準２級・２級 today. I posted my regimen a few months ago and a few pages back. I executed on exactly that, but then my parents visited and summer happened. So while I made it through the entire ３級 step book, I haven't been able to even start the 準２級 step book yet.
I approached the test mostly the same way I did last time(doing 書き取り first thing, then reading, and then everything else), but the main change I made was marking a lot more on the test paper. I didn't make use of it at all last time, but doing so this time allowed me to get a really good sense of my score right after taking the test. I circled the easy things, made triangles on the iffy ones to check later, squares for guesses, and no mark if I didn't answer.
Also, crossing out answers to use process of elimination on them helped in certain sections that have banks of readings. I misunderstood the test directions last time, and I didn't realize each reading was intended to only be used once for those sections. The instructions really are quite clear, but I think being used to the way the DS game handled it kind of messed me up. So I should do slightly better on those sections thanks to better test-taking strategies. You just walk out with your test paper at the end, and so you can do whatever the hell you want to it.
I'm quite certain I passed ３級, and I greatly improved my score from last time; going from ~95/200 to ~165/200. I'm also confident I aced more than a few sections of it completely, and that's a really good feeling.
I know I failed both 準２級 and ２級. I'm not disappointed by it. I knew I'd fail them. I wanted more experience taking those levels of the test. Interestingly, 準２級 felt harder than ２級. I think this is because I was able to ignore the parts of the harder test that I didn't know. Whereas on the easier test there were things I knew I had seen before, but just couldn't come up with the kanji for them. There was a lot more kicking myself.
The heartening thing is that my strongest sections of ２級 are going to be the things that were a big liability before. The reading gets harder at that level, but the 書き取り questions don't get too much crazier. So my strongest sections are going to be 訂正 and 書き取り with everything else dragging my score down to a fail.
I think I improved my 準２級 by like 20 points; going from ~85/200 to ~105/200. I'll be lucky if I break ~60/200 on ２級, though. It's my first time taking that level, and so I've nothing to compare it to.
The KanKen DS3 game as part of my practice regimen has started to become more important again at the higher levels of the test. The step books become more shallow as the test gets more broad, but the game has more questions in it than the step books. That mock test format for the game is also a really amazing way to get a measurement on progress.
My estimated score on the real test today is precisely in line with the kinds of scores I was getting in the game. So my strategy has been to Anki the step books to work my way up to a level, and then from there begin to practice for the actual test by using the game. In the 2 week run-up to the test I was taking 2-3 practice tests per day. I ended up covering about 30% of the material for the level.
Because I had so much coverage thanks to Anki already I wasn't really concerned about being a completionist in the game. The idea is to keep my brain limber, the material fresh in my head, and gauge my likelihood of passing the real test. I've yet to mark anything I've missed for later review in the game.
Anyone thinking about taking Kanji Kentei really should get Kanken DS3. It's basically ￥2000 to give you peace of mind that the ￥1800 you're going to spend on the test isn't going to go to waste. It's also a great way to boot strap your way up for the lower levels of the test you might not want to be spending money on.
The KanKen Chronicles - partner55083777 - 2012-12-01
Hey Erlog, thanks for your detailed write-up. It's really inspiring. How have you been progressing recently?
I have a couple questions.
1) Is stroke direction tested on the 漢検? I know there are questions about stroke order, but I'm wondering specifically about stroke direction. (For instance, the first stroke in 東 is always written from left to right. Are there any questions about this in the higher levels of the 漢検?)
2) Right now I'm going through RTK, and I've added stroke order/direction diagrams to all of my cards from http://www.kanjicafe.com/license.htm. However, it looks like the stroke ordering is messed up on some of the kanji. For instance, stoke 4 on 指 is from right-to-left (which I believe is correct), while stoke 1 on 旨 is from left-to-right (which I believe is incorrect). Is there somewhere I can double-check stoke order/direction?
3) I just searched right now and found http://kanjivg.tagaini.net/index.html. At the very least, it looks like it has the strokes in 指 and 旨 in the correct order. Is kanjivg generally trustable? Would it make sense adding diagrams from kanjivg as well to my rtk cards?
The KanKen Chronicles - JimmySeal - 2012-12-01
No, there are no kanken questions that ask about stroke direction, but it's possible that you could have a question marked wrong if you wrote a stroke in the wrong direction and caused it to look like the wrong type of stroke. Missing a はね somewhere could definitely cost you a question.
I've found that looking at a character in Mincho font is a pretty good way of checking stroke direction.
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?pid=10264#pid10264
It's consistent with your assessment of 旨 and 指.
The KanKen Chronicles - erlog - 2013-02-03
Looking back at that post from October, I noticed that I underestimated my scores on 準2級 and 2級 by like 20 points on both. I got 120 and 100 on those tests, respectively in October.
I took 準2級、2級、and 準1級 today in Nagoya. The 3 hour layover between 準2級 and 準1級 was a little annoying, but my testing location had stuff decently near enough that it turned out okay. Got a bit of exercise roaming around while getting lunch.
I'm fairly certain I passed 準2級. I have to check a few more of my answers in order to get a proper estimate, but my cursory tally during the train ride home puts me very comfortably above the passing mark of 140/200. The test felt easier than the practice tests I had been doing. That may just be an issue of time, though. I tend to rush through practice tests, and with the way the software is on the DS it's impossible to use process or elimination or do the test questions out of order.
I'm going to assume my score on 2級 went up since last time, but I really won't have any idea until I get the official results some time in March. I didn't bother to make notes on the test paper during the test like I did for 準2級. It felt difficult, and I was getting tip of the tongue syndrome a lot. I could just feel in my bones the kanji they wanted me to put, but I just couldn't come up with it. 裾 was a frustrating example of this. I'd even been talking to someone about that kanji just a few weeks back.
準1級 was almost comical in how inadequate it made me feel. I recognized pretty much all the kanji thanks to having done RTK3+more, but I just don't have deep enough connections to the associated vocabulary to be able to answer the test questions. There were a few of the questions on it that felt deceptively easy to the point where I'm certain my answer couldn't possibly be right. I made a bunch of educated guesses on the reading sections, and managed to even get a handful of the 書き取り questions. Again, I have no idea about an estimated score because I didn't bother to take notes. I answered 40 questions on the test, and more than half of those were probably guesses.
All in all it felt like a successful day out. My study strategy of Anki + Step Books + KanKen DS3 is working extremely well. I'm also learning new material a lot faster now. I've had to change how I do scheduling in Anki to compensate because otherwise the easy cards pile up to quickly as I'm making my way through the textbook. I made it through the 41 lessons in the 準2級 step book in about 6 weeks.
Before the next test in June I'm going to make a very concerted effort to finish both the 2級 and 準1級 textbooks. The 2級 step book only has 28 lessons (~2000 cards), and so that should take me about 3 weeks. Then that leaves like 3 months to make it through the ~4000 cards from the 準1級 book.
I am a little worried about how my study plan for 準1級 is going to work, though. There are no official step books for it and no textbooks for studying it in a comprehensive way. So I'm stuck with a drill book that purports to cover 87% of all the material in every 準1級 test going back 15 years. I hope it at least bootstraps me enough to be able to start passing the practice exams for KanKen DS3.
What will be nice about it, though, is I'll have a lot more variety in my practice questions. The KanKen DS games take material from the official step books so it can feel a bit redundant to practice them in the game while also Anki-ing them. There's no such risk of that for 準1級 because there's no step book.
The thing I'm really happiest about today is that I can stop paying so much damn money to take these tests. 準1級 is like 4000円 so it put my total test fee up around 1万円. Next time it'll be the much more reasonable 7500円 because I'm not going to bother to try to take 1級. I like kanji, but I'm not insane. Also, this is the first level of the test I've passed where they put my picture on the certificate. That's kind of neat.
The KanKen Chronicles - patriconia - 2013-02-03
I took ４級 a few days ago. My first Kanken attempt. I also had what Erlog described as "tip of tongue" syndrome on a few words that I definitely knew, but couldn't recall how to write. At least taking these tests will make me focus on more writing practice. Also didn't adequately prepare for the 四字熟語, but the synonym-antonym section was kinder to me than it was in the pre-test reviews I did. 誤字訂正 was kind of a wipe-out, but oh, well. Coming off the heals of the JLPT, I got a little lazy, and didn't transition fast enough into Kanken mode to adequately prepare.
The KanKen Chronicles - partner55083777 - 2013-02-03
JimmySeal Wrote:No, there are no kanken questions that ask about stroke direction, but it's possible that you could have a question marked wrong if you wrote a stroke in the wrong direction and caused it to look like the wrong type of stroke. Missing a はね somewhere could definitely cost you a question.Thanks. I've been making sure I pay a lot of attention to はね's and とめ's recently. Is there anything else I should make sure to watch out for? Like はらい's or something? I'm not sure I even know enough about kanji to know what to really pay attention to when I'm studying.
erlog Wrote:I'm fairly certain I passed 準2級. I have to check a few more of my answers in order to get a proper estimate, but my cursory tally during the train ride home puts me very comfortably above the passing mark of 140/200. The test felt easier than the practice tests I had been doing. That may just be an issue of time, though. I tend to rush through practice tests, and with the way the software is on the DS it's impossible to use process or elimination or do the test questions out of order.Great job, erlog! Good luck with ２級 next time. You have about 4 months until the next test, right?
Do you have any intention of opening up your deck for other people (like me :-p) to use?
I plan on starting to study for the 漢検 in a couple months using your method. DS game + step books up to ５級, and then introduce Anki from there. It would be wonderful not to have to input everything in Anki myself. I know you've probably put hundreds of hours of work into your deck, and it would probably make for an awesome resource for people aiming for the upper levels of 漢検.
The KanKen Chronicles - erlog - 2013-02-05
The next test is 6/30/2013. So just under 5 months. The cards from 準2級 are kind of backlogged in Anki right now so I have to wait a few weeks for that to subside before I can start studying 2級 material. In the meantime I'm adding the final 100 準1級 cards to RTK in order to complete my set.
I'm willing to share my KanKen deck with people who want it, but you'll have to contact me through e-mail for it. I'm uncomfortable with putting it up online. I have from 5級 up until 準2級 entered.
The KanKen Chronicles - TheVinster - 2013-02-05
I feel like I'd never be able to take a crack at the Kanken. I've done RTK but never put in effort to actually write Kanji, as I've never seen it as important (with how easily you can just type everything). Is this gap reachable? And how does one really work on such a thing? Sounds like the DS games are a good start.
The KanKen Chronicles - erlog - 2013-02-05
TheVinster Wrote:I feel like I'd never be able to take a crack at the Kanken. I've done RTK but never put in effort to actually write Kanji, as I've never seen it as important (with how easily you can just type everything). Is this gap reachable? And how does one really work on such a thing? Sounds like the DS games are a good start.Did you never write out the kanji while doing RTK? Did you review from kanji to keyword?
The gap is definitely reachable. I wasn't born with any innate ability for this stuff. I started down the KanKen path a little over a year ago. I used to not be able to write anything down without having to check my phone. I had no confidence in a lot of my kanji skill. I'm a teacher so being able to write things down for my students or other teachers is very helpful to me.
I could already read at about JLPT N1 level, but everything felt real shaky. So I decided I was going to solidify all this stuff in my head and expand my vocabulary by doing KanKen. I worked my up from 10級 to 5級 in the DS game. Then I started working the KanKen step books in Anki from there while also doing the DS game and taking the test every time it was offered.
You start at the beginning, and you just work your way up. The slope is quite gradual because the material is designed to be done one level per year by Japanese children alongside their regular schoolwork. The only sticking point is that if your reading ability wasn't of a sufficient level at the start then you'd probably have a lot more trouble working your way up. The earlier levels go a lot faster than the later ones, but progressing a full level has never taken me more than about 2 months. I went from 10級 to 6級 in about 3 months, and then it took me 10 months from there to get through 準2級. 2級 will take about 6 weeks for me to complete, and then it'll be about 12 weeks for me to work through 準1級.
Once I started taking the test in person I set my goal as at least one full level of progress between tests(3-4 months). I also take tests higher than my level in order to evaluate how well my study methods are working overall. So the first time I took 4級, 3級, and 準2級. I passed 4級, and then added 2級 to the mix for the next time. I passed 3級, and so this most recent time I added 準1級 to the mix. My goal is always fail 2/pass 1, and have a fun and relaxing day of testing.
I really did used to be in about your same situation.
The KanKen Chronicles - yudantaiteki - 2013-02-05
I passed up to 3-kyuu and I've never used RTK or done any concerted writing practice aside from the STEP books and other kanken prep books, so it's definitely possible. You might have to start with a low level if your writing isn't great (also the kanken tests a lot of stuff you wouldn't normally study).
The KanKen Chronicles - erlog - 2013-02-05
I would recommending working from the beginning for pretty much anyone. If your level really is where you think it is then you should have no trouble spending a week or so flying through some practice tests in KanKen DS3 to find where your KanKen level really is. The tests don't really overlap so much, and that can be a problem especially for people like us here on this forum that didn't learn our vocab/kanji according to Japanese grade level. I very easily could have just studied for 準2級 from the beginning, and probably passed it.
If you're just interested in the cert you can do it that way, but you might have some blind spots.
Working your way up can be a really good review. I'm not saying you have to go take 10級 in person or anything. The DS game provides practice tests for all the levels, and for the lower levels that aren't that substantial that includes every single question that could possibly ever come up on the test. So passing a few times in the game is about the same as having passed it in person.
The KanKen Chronicles - TheVinster - 2013-02-06
So what books do you guys recommend then? Also you can throw out a recommended DS game but I don't have a DS so it's more for the purpose of in the future, I suppose. I think it'd definitely be valuable, and you seem to be correct in your assumption that you were the same as me. Even when reading I have this lack of confidence in reading the kanji, even if I know I can read it. So I waste time checking it and just prove myself correct. As a result I never feel like I can read while not sitting near a computer and that really puts strain on the studying process in my opinion.
The KanKen Chronicles - erlog - 2013-02-06
You should be able to get a used DS for pretty cheap now. The game is also really cheap too.
Here's a link: http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B001QXDJE4/
I've used the official KanKen step books from 5級 on up to 2級, but there's no step book for 準1級. There's sample problem sets, but no comprehensive way to work your way up. So I've bought a different book for that.
Here's a for a search on Amazon that brings those ステップ books up.
This is the book I'm using for 準1級: http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4816352864/
The KanKen Chronicles - yudantaiteki - 2013-02-06
They used to have a jun-1 book that separated the kanji into chapters, although it wasn't as good as the STEP books. But I haven't seen it lately in stores so it may have gone out of print when they modified the levels recently.
The KanKen Chronicles - erlog - 2013-02-26
February KanKen results were posted online today. Here's how I did:
準2級 － Pass
2級 － 62% (80％ needed to pass）
準1級 － 10％（80％ needed to pass）
I won't know my exact score on 準2級 until I get the real results in the mail. It's a really dumb system where it won't tell you your exact score if you pass the test, but it will if you fail. The passing mark on 準2級 is 70%. So I know I got higher than that, but I'm pretty certain I got somewhere in the 83%-86% range. It's gonna gnaw at me until I find out for real.
I knew that 準1級 felt hard when I took it but seeing the kind of comedy score I got kind of shakes my confidence that I'll be able to improve that much before June. So it looks like I'll be shooting for October with it instead. If I can get somewhere around 110-140 next time I take it I'll consider that a success.
The KanKen Chronicles - TheVinster - 2013-02-26
Well nice job erlog, glad to hear you're doing well considering you said you were once in my position. Pretty motivational for sure. I probably would've bought the game you recommended by now, but I'm confused by the region codes for the DS as it's regionless until DSi then things get messy from there. At least I think so.
The KanKen Chronicles - erlog - 2013-02-26
Original DS games are always region free, and will play on any DS, DSi, or 3DS from any region. Go ahead and buy it.
The KanKen Chronicles - ojousan - 2013-02-27
I found out I passed 6級 today.
A far cry from erlog's level, but I hope to climb steadily.
The KanKen Chronicles - erlog - 2013-02-27
You can totally do it. I worked my way up, and so can you! Just keep working those step books. It does pay dividends as long as you keep improving your Japanese in other areas along with it.
The KanKen Chronicles - Forthem - 2013-02-27
Congrats Erlog! You're really an inspiration
! I've been trying my hand at the 3級 step book, and I really think I've been getting a lot better at reading/writing the included kanji since starting them. I really like the way they're organized too. If someone knew just the step books forwards and backwards, do you think that would be enough to get a passing score on the tests?I think you mentioned a little while ago that you might be willing to share your kanen anki decks with people? If you still don't mind sharing them, I would love to benefit from all of your hard work too
!!And congrats again! Best of luck in June too!
The KanKen Chronicles - erlog - 2013-02-27
Yes, I do think they would be able to pass the tests by knowing the step books forwards and backwards(anki them!). I know because that's exactly what I've done. I've also used the DS game for practice, but I begin studying for a level by making it through the step book in Anki.
This strategy has netted me 80%+ on the test for every step book that I've studied. I'd also be willing to share my decks, but you're going to have to e-mail me about that.
The KanKen Chronicles - TheVinster - 2013-02-28
erlog Wrote:Yes, I do think they would be able to pass the tests by knowing the step books forwards and backwards(anki them!). I know because that's exactly what I've done. I've also used the DS game for practice, but I begin studying for a level by making it through the step book in Anki.So if I understand your post from a few weeks ago, you went from 10 to 5 with just the game, and starting at 4 you started using the books AND game? And for the books you just entered everything into Anki? I'm curious how it's laid out, is it a sentence deck?
This strategy has netted me 80%+ on the test for every step book that I've studied. I'd also be willing to share my decks, but you're going to have to e-mail me about that.
I don't have a DS so if I wanted the game I'd have to get a DSi probably (only $100) and the game ($35). I imagine it's worth it...
The KanKen Chronicles - erlog - 2013-02-28
I went from 10級～6級 with just the game, but then grinding through 5級 the same way in the game felt really inefficient. So I did the step book in that for Anki, practiced and passed that level in the game for a while. Then I moved on to taking 4級+ for real.
My deck is laid out like this:
Expression: （カマモト）に出向いて器を買った。
Reading: （カマモト）に 出向[でむ]いて 器[うつわ]を 買[か]った。
Answer: 窯元
Question Type: 書き取り
Level: 準2級-39
Then the cards look like this:
Front:
書き取り
（カマモト）に出向いて器を買った。
Back:
（カマモト）に 出向[でむ]いて 器[うつわ]を 買[か]った。
Answer: 窯元
I laid out the deck this way so that I can have different types of questions in the same deck, and also so I can keep track of where everything came from. That's important because if I find a mistake I can easily go back to check the book to see if I made an error.
One major thing I modified about the step books, though, is that I changed all of the sentence reading questions into 書き取り questions with the target word cloze-deleted in katakana like you see above. On occasion this can create some confusion where the example sentence doesn't have enough context, but it's only an issue I've run into with like 10 cards out of 10,000. 叔父 vs. 伯父 is a recent example. The real 書き取り questions had the proper context so you could differentiate mother's brother versus father's brother, but the reading questions didn't. So I just modified the sentences to add that context.
The KanKen Chronicles - Forthem - 2013-02-28
I'm glad to hear you give such high regard to the step books! I've been trying to study the one I have a bunch, but I was starting to get worried that maybe they only covered the things Japanese people might find difficult (and thus a large chunk of the "easier" test material wouldn't be covered, yet there would still be stuff I didn't know even if I knew the whole book...) Thanks a ton! You're really an inspiration! (and I tried emailing you :p)