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Kana compounds (キャ...) - Ramchip - 2007-03-07
Taking an exemple I just saw from another thread, "podcast" is spelled ポッドキャスと in katakana, and never ポドカスト or ポッドカスト. But why in some words write キャ instead of カ, and in other words not?
I've also seen other combinations being used, so my question isn't really specific to this word, but it's a good example since "poddokasuto" definitely shouldn't be read "poddokyasuto". Could it be because the "ka" syllable is accented (thus longer) in the english word and the japanese use キャ to make it last two morae?..
Kana compounds (キャ...) - twincy - 2007-03-07
hey! wanted to ask it myself.
i wonder if you can make your own spellings according to the sounds, and if so:
would the nihonjins understand it?
Kana compounds (キャ...) - chamcham - 2007-03-07
that's just the way japanese pronounce the word.
The english "ka" sound(as in "cast") is often pronounced as "kya".
So for example, "can", would probably be pronounced "kyan".
If you think about it, the "kya" sound is much closer to being right
than the "ka". Also, the "a" sound at the end of the "kya" is a much higher
pitch than in "ka".
Keep in mind that there are no set standards when it comes to
romanizing words. So don't expect any kind of consistency from
articles or transcripts.
If you know any Japanese, have them pronounce the following words:
can't
woman
It's really funny(especially "woman" which sounds more like "oomon").
To hear it, go here:
At 41 seconds into the video, the doctor says "women", even though
it doesn't sounds like it.
Kana compounds (キャ...) - dingomick - 2007-03-07
:lol: :lol: :lol:
The first rule of katakana-ization is to not ask questions. Just accept it!
The second rule of katakana-ization, is there are no set rules.
Take door and xylitol [zahy-li-tawl] as some blatant examples.
Words can either be phonetic (door = ドア, instead of ドール(which is doll))
or direct transcription (xylitol = キシリトール (ki-shi-ri-tou-ru) instead of ザイリタル (zai-ri-ta-ru, which is phonetically more coherent)).
It's just a matter of how the word came into popular useage.
Also, the Japanese syllabary is limited, so sounds have to be invented. There's no "-er" sound, so words often end in a long "-aa". There's no "v", but they represent it in writing with "ウィ". You simply have to memorize every Japanese katakana version borrowed words. Try to pronounce it normally, or in the expected phonetic way, and you'll just get blank stares.
The sooner you accept the fact that the words are NOT English/Spanish/German/whatever, and are in fact Japanese reinterpretations, the sooner you'll be able to just memorize all the non-sequiturs and get on with using them without maddening frustration. And then you can actually enjoy them!
Remember: katakana does NOT equal English! (or any other language borrowed from)
On top of that, the Japanese LOVE to abbreviate things. So they'll take English words, butcher them with katakana, then chop them up and glue them together into cute short combos.
Can you guess what パソコン is?
Personal computer パーソナルコンピューター
How about プリクラ?
Print club プリントクラブ
Or ミスド?
Mister Donut ミスタードナツ
Once you drop your expectations that katakana = English, then you'll enjoy katakana.
Kana compounds (キャ...) - Christoph - 2007-03-07
A really good one, that someone once used with me at an 英会話 was:-
ウイルス or Virus.
and this word is also katakana-ized as...
ウイルス(P); ウィルス(P); ビールス; ヴィールス; ヴァイラス (n) virus; (P)
but I've never heard anyone use that last (and seemingly most accurate) one.
EDIT: while we're talking about this, I have to mention one that I just saw in handout given to me literally minutes ago (had to check this one on JDict.)...
フォルクローレ
or....
(n) folklore
Kana compounds (キャ...) - dingomick - 2007-03-07
Yeah, I've had consistent laughs/confusions about "virus".
Kana compounds (キャ...) - erlog - 2007-03-08
Another interesting thing is that you have to realize that over there they learn British English and pronunciation; not American. This means that all katakana word ports conform to a dialect of English that you might not speak. This makes some things difficult to understand.
Also, I think that verbally カスト requires more verbal gymnastics for the Japanese tongue. キャスト might soften that.
Kana compounds (キャ...) - matticus - 2007-03-08
This has been bothering me forever. Japanese people always tell me that it must be convenient to already know so many words in their language (like ドンマイ、ドタキャン、グラビアアイドル, of course!) when in reality I am constantly frustrated by the lack of sense that katakana compounds make. I'm beginning to think that just making E=>J flashcards of katakana compounds would be super helpful, since trying to stuff English words into Japanese syllables makes me sound ridiculous. Has anyone tried this?
Oh, and I also absolutely hate to pronounce Japanese loanwords (karaoke, kamikaze, etc.) in a Japanese accent when I speak English. They are not Japanese words anymore, and pronouncing them like they are makes me feel like a pretentious ass. So I am not knocking the Japanese for distorting English words at all, because I do the same thing to their language everyday.
Kana compounds (キャ...) - Christoph - 2007-03-08
erlog Wrote:Another interesting thing is that you have to realize that over there they learn British English and pronunciation; not American. This means that all katakana word ports conform to a dialect of English that you might not speak. This makes some things difficult to understand.It may well be true that many katakana words have descended from a British dialect, but as for Japanese people learning British English, that's at least not true for the schools that I work at (most likely because the City's board of education and the government want it that way).
I think it's just a preference when it comes to English conversation classes, but seeing as the TOEIC test involves listening to an American voice I think most prefer an American dialect.
Kana compounds (キャ...) - dingomick - 2007-03-08
erlog, I rarely meet a Japanese intentionally studying British English, or that is in, or was in, a British English program.
matticus, I didn't recognize a single one of your examples. :lol: There are katakana dictionaries. I think drilling katakana spelling would be more difficult that Japanese i.e. is "soccer" サカ or サーカー or サカー ad naseum. I've seriously considered it, and will probably do it in the future.
Also, where do you live? I absolutely hate it when people speak Japanese words as if they were loan words...while living in Japan and speaking Japanese! With other foreigners, okay, I'll give you that. And I revert to their US pronounciations when I'm in the US. But it annoys me to no end to hear people pronounce "loan words" wrong when speaking Japanese within its own cultural context. 僕はcare-ee-o-ki大好きだよ! Yeehaw!
Kana compounds (キャ...) - matticus - 2007-03-08
dingomick Wrote:I absolutely hate it when people speak Japanese words as if they were loan words...while living in Japan and speaking Japanese! With other foreigners, okay, I'll give you that. And I revert to their US pronounciations when I'm in the US. But it annoys me to no end to hear people pronounce "loan words" wrong when speaking Japanese within its own cultural context. 僕はcare-ee-o-ki大好きだよ! Yeehaw!Holy poopoo that is ridiculous! :lol: Yeah, I definitely use the Japanese pronunciation when speaking Japanese, but saying, "Hey guys, want to go out and do some CARR - AH - OHH - KAY?" is so left-handed to me that I have given up on it a long time ago. Whether we realize it or not, American English has its own rules for pronunciation too, and that word does not fit into them at all.
Kana compounds (キャ...) - erlog - 2007-03-08
dingomick Wrote:erlog, I rarely meet a Japanese intentionally studying British English, or that is in, or was in, a British English program.Of course I didn't mean that only British English is studied, and they actively ignore American English. I've just noticed that, more often than not, British English pronunciations for things are way more common in things like katakana words and Japanese people that I've heard speaking English.
Another example: My name is John, but in katakana it's ported as ジョーン and not ジャーン like it's more commonly pronounced in America.
Kana compounds (キャ...) - dingomick - 2007-03-08
Gotcha.
Kana compounds (キャ...) - Mighty_Matt - 2007-03-09
I remember someone telling me that several decades ago it was British English which was taught in Japanese schools, where as now all the text books etc seem to be in American English (spelling, accent etc).
If that's true then I guess it's the older generation who have greater influence over the katakana-isation of English words. Or they set the precident when younger and it's still followed today. Either way, loan words are still confusing
Kana compounds (キャ...) - chamcham - 2007-03-09
erlog Wrote:Actually, that second spelling sounds more like "Jan".dingomick Wrote:erlog, I rarely meet a Japanese intentionally studying British English, or that is in, or was in, a British English program.Of course I didn't mean that only British English is studied, and they actively ignore American English. I've just noticed that, more often than not, British English pronunciations for things are way more common in things like katakana words and Japanese people that I've heard speaking English.
Another example: My name is John, but in katakana it's ported as ジョーン and not ジャーン like it's more commonly pronounced in America.
So if you want a girl's name, be my guest......... :-p
Kana compounds (キャ...) - twincy - 2007-03-09
well... "jan" is for sure not a girls name... duh
welcome to czech republic (and sweden as well)
Kana compounds (キャ...) - Ramchip - 2007-03-10
The british pronounciation might be simply easier to 'katakanize'. Take door: it takes much less tongue twisting to pronounce it with a long british "o", which ドア reproduces fairly well, than with a shorter "o" and an american "r" at the end
ドル is the closest I see to an american pronounciation but thanks to the japanese "r" it comes out a lot more like doll (actually ドール as dingomick wrote) than door...