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+--- Thread: On why it's important to make your own stories (/thread-4038.html)
On why it's important to make your own stories - isharabash - 2009-09-19
The mind works by association, so when you use someone else's story, unless you've already had their association previously, you're hindering yourself. It is far, far better you use the first thing that pops into your mind? Why, because that associative memory is already there. Even if you can't always remember the story/image, it's better to use that and add a side note to the primitive keyword (using substitute keywords in firefox). The side note should be indirect, but remind you of YOUR image to help strengthen the association, otherwise your missing the point of the book (NOT to use brute force memory).
Of course, it is unavoidable to run into a kanji with which you can make no story/image for, then it's okay to use someone elses, because you'd be brute forcing anyway.
Best of luck, I probably won't follow this thread, have kanji to do!
On why it's important to make your own stories - phauna - 2009-09-19
I disagree. It's faster not to make up the stories, collective intelligence is greater than my own individual intelligence, and I've already seen after finishing that my recall is the same as others who made up every story. The srs is a more important factor than the stories, any stories will do.
On why it's important to make your own stories - ruiner - 2009-09-19
Association of stories with personal knowledge/experience is not the main or even a major aspect that makes the RTK stories memorable. The imaginative and systematic method here allows for a continuous balancing act of creating one's own stories or using those of others. A ratio where one is using others' stories more than one's own seems to be the most useful, from what I've gathered from my own experience and the success stories of other RTK grads.
PS - It seems you haven't yet finished RTK or are still in the process of making them mature in your mind, so I think maybe you should wait before you make definitive hit-and-run statements (rather than open-ended comments) of your opinions on memory and RTK and what works best for others, much less yourself. ^_^
Oh, and to actually address your concerns as if this thread is indeed more of a general inquiry from a relative beginner: You'll find that, when using the stories of others, between putting your imagination to work in processing their story, the surprisingly similar connections we all have with these kanji/keywords and rich creativity in constructing stories, and the continuous sharing of a wide variety of stories, you'll have little trouble with finding associations that resonate with you.
That said, as a general rule of thumb, I do think there's value in trying to construct one's own stories before using that of another. Good exercise for the imagination and nice to have more contributions.
On why it's important to make your own stories - FattyMagee - 2009-09-19
I use both methods.
If I looked at the image and the keyword and just immediately got an image and story in my head, I went with that. That happened rarely though, maybe 1/25 kanjis. For those other 24, I just followed the stories of others that had been honed over time to give me great images very quickly.
I finished in 2.5 months and its only been like 3 weeks since I finished and 75% of my cards are in the 5th and 6th pile. So 1500 kanjis are basicly permanent in my brain at the moment. It seemed like a good method for me to follow the stories of others. Thanks all the people who contributed over the past few years by the way.
On why it's important to make your own stories - Tobberoth - 2009-09-19
I agree with TC. Having tried both making my own stories and using the stories on this site, it's obvious my retention is FAR better with stories I made myself. This is logical and nothing to be surprised about.
HOWEVER, making your own stories is not simply something which takes time and effort. It also requires training and experience. A good story from this site is definitely better than a crappy story you made yourself in a few seconds.
For people who have the time and the imagination, I recommend making up your own stories, it will help retention a lot and probably make going trough RtK more fun. For people who are in a hurry/are lazy/lack imagination/simply don't want to put more effort into RtK than reviewing already is, go for the stories on the site.
On why it's important to make your own stories - Kewickviper - 2009-09-19
I just use the ones on the site here. I have tried making up stories and have found that personally for me it works better if I use the ones on the site and saves me a lot of time. I also never spend more than a minute per Kanji when learning them and usually no longer than 30 seconds, as soon as a visual representation of the story appears in my mind I move on. I have found that no matter how much time I spend creating a story or trying to get a clear image of the story in my head it doesn't make the retention any better, in fact I forgot more of the Kanji I spent more time learning. Usually I won't know until a few days later if the story has stuck, and if it hasn't then I either change stories or modify the current one slightly and see if it will stick later on. I have found that not getting hung up spending more time on learning Kanji allows me to learn more Kanji per day in less time, with better retention rates.
Sorry if that's a bit of a hard read I tried to make it easier and less long haha.
On why it's important to make your own stories - Blank - 2009-09-19
I was very happy just using Schultz's stories. That guy's got a way with words (all of the kanji with the "kick in the nuts" radical are very memorable, let me tell you).
On why it's important to make your own stories - kazelee - 2009-09-19
phauna Wrote:I disagree. It's faster not to make up the stories, collective intelligence is greater than my own individual intelligence, and I've already seen after finishing that my recall is the same as others who made up every story. The srs is a more important factor than the stories, any stories will do.Nods ^^
On why it's important to make your own stories - Koos83 - 2009-09-21
We remember what we have a strong association with. Whether that is your own image, that you've conjured up yourself, or whether it is a story you found on here that immediately makes it click in your mind, or, better yet, that makes you laugh because you can see it so vividly and it is ridiculous or funny.
There's quite a few Kanji that I remember better than the others, because the stories I found on here made me laugh so much.
But of course there's also Kanji that I can't remember well, even with the stories I got on here, and there's Kanji that I remember best with Heisig's own stories. However, I find Heisig's own stories too abstract sometimes, and since I wasn't raised very religiously, the Biblical references have very little meaning to me.
Like I said: memory works best if you can associate with what is being said. So use whatever works best for you, and what works for you, doesn't necessarily work for someone else.
On why it's important to make your own stories - hknamida - 2009-09-21
I'd say it depends on your definition of a "story". I can only speak for myself, but by the time I've successfully internalized a story, even if someone else wrote it, I've generally tweaked it using my own views and experiences to the point where it is "mine". Using someone else's words shouldn't be a problem unless you use the words themselves, directly. As long as you try to visualize every story, what you'll get is an individual interpretation, even if it's based on something you didn't write yourself.
On why it's important to make your own stories - liosama - 2009-09-21
1. The set of characters that involved heisig using fiesta or whatever crap he did was where my etymological + imaginative brain (arrow, battle axe, skythe, death skythe) kicked in and i formulated a bunch of radicals and primitives that i believe to be the best in the world.
2. I didn't even know who Mr T. was before I came to this forum, so I stuck with Himura Kenshin from the anime.
3. But other generic stories off the site I've used worked for me quite fine.
So you are both right and wrong.
On why it's important to make your own stories - undead_saif - 2009-09-21
Making vivid images of others stories or adding your twist to it will make others stories as good as yours!
On why it's important to make your own stories - woodwojr - 2009-09-21
Personally I found that I tended to slow down when using the story method after Heisig's premade stories ran out, with no concurrent increase in reliability of memorization. Anecdotally that speaks against making one's own stories in general.
~J
On why it's important to make your own stories - AmberUK - 2009-09-21
I am sooooo poor at my own stories. I seem to get an image in my head when I read the keyword and it doesn't fit the meaning of the word of the primitives. The words that are not solid objects are the worst for that.
On why it's important to make your own stories - atylmo - 2009-09-21
AmberUK Wrote:I am sooooo poor at my own stories. I seem to get an image in my head when I read the keyword and it doesn't fit the meaning of the word of the primitives. ...That's what made RTK so hard for me. Every time I had a story involving the keyword, it had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the primitives. Every time I had a story to go with the primitives, it wasn't nearly strong enough or vivid enough to solidify it in memory.
I have strong associations with some of the words (from TV shows, etc.) but it feels just about impossible to make the associations that the words have in my head fit the primitives.
On why it's important to make your own stories - AmberUK - 2009-09-21
atylmo Wrote:This is almost exactly my problem. I have been improving it by using the stories on the web site, looking up the kanji in a dictionary to see the connotation the keyword takes, and also pre-reading the next few kanji so they get time to ferment in my mind. Sometimes the fermenting helps a lot, some I have had to skip, as I could just not get a story to stick. I just re-did watchtower and number using rice+woman = caprica six (as she has blond hair). This probs came cos watchtower = main song from BSG.AmberUK Wrote:I am sooooo poor at my own stories. I seem to get an image in my head when I read the keyword and it doesn't fit the meaning of the word of the primitives. ...That's what made RTK so hard for me. Every time I had a story involving the keyword, it had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the primitives. Every time I had a story to go with the primitives, it wasn't nearly strong enough or vivid enough to solidify it in memory.
I have strong associations with some of the words (from TV shows, etc.) but it feels just about impossible to make the associations that the words have in my head fit the primitives.
I find some of these with a lot of primitives are hard as there seems to be a lot of shoe horning to get it all to fit.
On why it's important to make your own stories - isharabash - 2009-09-23
I have also found that the first pass on the kanji, I usually fail a lot, but pick them up after the first pass through the study section (which I make a point of doing everyday). What do you all think of that?
Here's something odd too:
If I haven't seen a kanji in a while, but I tried to switch stories I find that I remember the initial story, even if it made no sense, and I forgot completely the second story.
On why it's important to make your own stories - Koos83 - 2009-09-23
isharabash Wrote:I have also found that the first pass on the kanji, I usually fail a lot, but pick them up after the first pass through the study section (which I make a point of doing everyday). What do you all think of that?I think you need to spend a bit more time per Kanji on imagining and learning it. Basically what you're doing the second time around, in the study section, you need to do the first time around and then you don't have to do it the second time.
isharabash Wrote:Here's something odd too:I often have the same thing.
If I haven't seen a kanji in a while, but I tried to switch stories I find that I remember the initial story, even if it made no sense, and I forgot completely the second story.
I don't know why this happens, perhaps because more time is spent on the first story than on the second (trying to imagine it and all), but I'm not sure.
On why it's important to make your own stories - bizarrojosh - 2009-09-23
I think that, like others have said, if you can come up with your own story it will probably stick better than a story that you didn't come up with. But if another's story is much more vivid or makes "sense" then I always go with that. Thank god I found this site though, if I had to come up with all of the stories on my own I probably would have quit!!
On why it's important to make your own stories - Evil_Dragon - 2009-09-23
bizarrojosh Wrote:I think that, like others have said, if you can come up with your own story it will probably stick better than a story that you didn't come up with. But if another's story is much more vivid or makes "sense" then I always go with that. Thank god I found this site though, if I had to come up with all of the stories on my own I probably would have quit!!Stories that "make sense" stick better for you? That's kind of interesting, it's the complete opposite for me The ones that are bizarre and completely over the top I could never forget even if I tried.
On why it's important to make your own stories - isharabash - 2009-09-23
Things outside of social norm seem to stick with me, like checking a woman's crotch to see if she's really a guy...
On why it's important to make your own stories - vosmiura - 2009-09-24
Do you remember books you've read and movies you've seen? Did you write them?
You don't really need to make your own stories if you can visualize someone else's story and it clicks with you.
On why it's important to make your own stories - Koos83 - 2009-09-24
Evil_Dragon Wrote:I think what Josh means are stories you have an association with. That 'click' with you. Some of the more abstract stories Heisig comes up with, I just can't picture in my mind, no matter how much I try. Then I read some stories on here and one of them will just stick with me. It has nothing to do with stories that are bizarre or not, it's the ones you can picture.bizarrojosh Wrote:I think that, like others have said, if you can come up with your own story it will probably stick better than a story that you didn't come up with. But if another's story is much more vivid or makes "sense" then I always go with that. Thank god I found this site though, if I had to come up with all of the stories on my own I probably would have quit!!Stories that "make sense" stick better for you? That's kind of interesting, it's the complete opposite for me The ones that are bizarre and completely over the top I could never forget even if I tried.
On why it's important to make your own stories - kilioopu - 2009-09-27
I think this is such an individual thing that it's very hard to generalize. For me:
- I can't predict when an odd story will stick. Heisig's story for "plug" was an immediate lock. Others stick around for a couple of weeks and then disappear with barely a ripple. My solution is to take advantage of this and create a whole new story.
- Some of my personal stories are perfect but not widely applicable. For example, for "hold", one my favorite sutras is where Buddha holds a flower while smiling. I know a statue of this Buddha, right by one of my favorite beaches. This sutra is a lock for me, but probably not for you.
- I've found inventing my own primitives can be a huge help. For example, I've named the lidded crock with a scarf "Jack", eg "distant" is "Jack on the road"; "pathetic" is "Jack in a hat", the common primitive in "send back" and "ring" is "One Buck Jack" (a particularly cheap wine; the sidewise eye above ceiling is "one buck" because of the eye on the one dollar bill), and so on. This is a great lock for me.
- When I can link a keyword to a song, it's an immediate lock. Rhymes and puns work almost as well. (Tomtosh's "Deliber us from evil" for "deliberate" was perfect for me).
- I don't overuse the sex angle, but when it works, it works great. The kanji logic for "guy" is right on.
- Almost none of the "person" primitive stories on the web site worked for me. Boh. I chose two "person" people - my long-standing yoga teacher for the positive stories, and a colleague for the negative stories.
Anyway, we're all different. I think age may have something to do with it as well - our memory is more plastic when we are younger. At least I'm no longer having kanji nights - my mind was very unsettled for the first three weeks as I poured kanji into it, making my sleep fitful. I'm now used to it...
On why it's important to make your own stories - Meconium - 2009-10-10
The problem with the OP's original theory is that it confuses 'how well a story will stick' with 'how good a story is to describe a kanji made up of primitives'. A story you make up yourself, especially one based on personal experiences that are significant in your life, will usually stick better.
Some of these stories, which have (for the most part) stuck in your mind because of the personal association, will be perfect for describing the kanji. But connecting the story to the keyword is half the battle, the rest is using the story to work out the primitives used in the kanji. The problem is that a lot of the radicals have very similar meanings, to do with people in various poses, cultural or natural things. This means that a story has to be GOOD to describe the primitive well enough to separate it from a similar one.
The value of many brains thinking over the same thing and coming up with solutions is greater than the value of one solo brain doing the work itself. Wikipedia and this site are testament to that fact. While it is a good exercise to try to make a kanji story 'personal', if you find that no matter how well the story sticks, it doesn't help you remember the writing of the kanji, then it's not a good story.
I for one am really grateful for the collaborative nature of this site and the hard work people put into it - while I'm really proud of some of the stories I've come up with, part of the joy of Heisig as I now see it is listening to the stories of others and gaining amusement from this. I have a neighbour who has done Heisig and didn't use this site; a lot of his stories are creative and brilliant, and he also appreciates mine (a lot of which are just appropriated from other contributors that he doesn't know about it because he didn't use this site)!
Some kanji are just hard. Like others have said, if others have made up a story that helps you remember the primitives, even if it's not as creative or satisfying as your own, then ultimately it's a superior story.