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Causative Vs. Transitive - Printable Version

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Causative Vs. Transitive - Virtua_Leaf - 2009-09-12

For example, what's the difference between:

私はハンカチをしめらせた。
私はハンカチをしめした。

Ｏｒ

大学へ行かせた
大学へ行かした

Been bugging me for a while but haven't been bothered to ask up until now. I take it the 'let someone/something do something' meaning can't be conveyed using the plain old transitive but what about the more coercive meaning? What's the difference between that and the causative?

Causative Vs. Transitive - kazelee - 2009-09-12

私はハンカチをしめらせた。(someone has a gun to your back and says do it)
私はハンカチをしめした。 (you just did it)

僕を母さんに大学へ行かせた。（多分）

大学へ行かした　(I've never seen this before)


http://www.gwu.edu/~eall/vjg/61control1causative/61control1causative.html

http://www.gwu.edu/~eall/vjg/62control2%20te-morau/62control2%20te-morau.html

Causative Vs. Transitive - Virtua_Leaf - 2009-09-13

Ooh, cool site.

Perhaps I missed it but I'm not really sure if it explained my question though (or at least, the first example).

(At around the 5:00 mark) It says "the particle o is used for a powerless animal or inanimate object that is forced to undergo a change."

Handkerchief is an inanimate object which is forced to undergo a change in both structures so I'm still confused about which one to use.

kazelee Wrote:私はハンカチをしめらせた。(someone has a gun to your back and says do it)
私はハンカチをしめした。 (you just did it)
Also, it doesn't mention anything about nuance of the subject being forced to perform the action (wouldn't that be the agent marked by ni?　ある人は銃で私にハンカチをしめらせた。of something?)

It even gives the example: 子供が金魚を死なせた with the translation: (A child caused the goldfish to die.)

EDIT - Oh, I have another question while we're here if it's okay. I'm wondering what the difference is between もらう and くれる in the type of situation presented at 4:20 in the second video:

(speaking to someone on the phone)
三時に来てもらえる？
三時に来てくれる？

Causative Vs. Transitive - Tobberoth - 2009-09-13

Virtua_Leaf Wrote:EDIT - Oh, I have another question while we're here if it's okay. I'm wondering what the difference is between もらう and くれる in the type of situation presented at 4:20 in the second video:

(speaking to someone on the phone)
三時に来てもらえる？
三時に来てくれる？
Isn't it obvious from the words?

First one:
* Can I have you come at 3 o clock?
Second one:
* Will you come at 3 o clock?

Causative Vs. Transitive - Virtua_Leaf - 2009-09-13

Yep, I know the te-morau construction means 'have someone do something for you' and te-kureru mean 'someone does the favour of doing something for you,' but in this situation I just don't really see the difference... They both express practically the same thing to me. Is one more politer than the other?

EDIT - Oh hang on. Thinking about it, does "三時に来てもらえる？" imply the speaker wants the second person to come around at 3 o'clock (as in "can I put you out by having you come round at 3?" or something), whereas "三時に来てくれる?" is a polite way of saying "Are you going to come round at 3 o'clock (whether I like it or not)?"?

Causative Vs. Transitive - liosama - 2009-09-13

Is it not the other way around virtua leaf?
to me , 来てもらえる seems much less direct than 来てくれる, hence it is more polite. As it is asking for the ability for the guy to come at 3, where as the second is kinda, asking it...

Causative Vs. Transitive - Virtua_Leaf - 2009-09-13

liosama Wrote:Is it not the other way around virtua leaf?
to me , 来てもらえる seems much less direct than 来てくれる, hence it is more polite. As it is asking for the ability for the guy to come at 3, where as the second is kinda, asking it...
Hmm, that's a point... I actually didn't catch the potential 来てもらえる before. Thinking about it now, would it even make grammatical sense to ask 来てもらう? in the second person?

Also, I found the translation of 私はハンカチをしめらせた。in ADoBJG (where I originally got the sentence from): "Lit. I made my handkerchief get damp. (=I dampened my handkerchief)"

I still don't see the difference between that and "私はハンカチをしめした。"

Actually, hang on... if the object is inanimate does it HAVE to be causative? But if the object is animate, it can change depending on context, ie. 赤ちゃんの頭をしめした (I dampened the baby's head (in general), 赤ちゃんの頭をしめさせた (I made the baby's head damp (because he did it to me this morning and now I'm evening the score)... Argh, really confused now.

Causative Vs. Transitive - timewastin - 2009-09-13

From what I can tell at my level (not the grandmaster of the language):

Transitive: Only possible when there actually exists a 他動詞 for what you want to say. Meaning: 灯を消す = turn off the light

Causative: Possible with any verb (where it makes sense). Meaning: 灯を消えさせる = make the light turn itself off (if that were possible).

As you can see, the causative can (afaik) only be used when you make someone do something, not with objects that can't do anything by themselves.

Causative Vs. Transitive - Virtua_Leaf - 2009-09-14

timewastin Wrote:From what I can tell at my level (not the grandmaster of the language):

Transitive: Only possible when there actually exists a 他動詞 for what you want to say. Meaning: 灯を消す = turn off the light

Causative: Possible with any verb (where it makes sense). Meaning: 灯を消えさせる = make the light turn itself off (if that were possible).

As you can see, the causative can (afaik) only be used when you make someone do something, not with objects that can't do anything by themselves.
Ohh, I think I get it! Transitive = doing/making something do something yourself, causitive = mae someone/thing else do something? ie.,

赤ちゃんの頭をしめした (I dampened the baby's head)
赤ちゃんの頭をしめさせた (I made the baby dampen it's head)

Is that it?

One complication remaining is the handkerchief...

私はハンカチをしめした。(I dampened the cloth)
私はハンカチをしめらせた。(I made the cloth dampen itself)

Could it be open to interpretation what does what itself? ie. (transitive) ハンカチを水に入れた but could it been seen to have soaked up the water itself and in turn dampened itself?

Causative Vs. Transitive - Tobberoth - 2009-09-14

I shouldn't be sticking my nose into this, because I really don't feel comfortable with causative being used for inanimate things, I've never really heard or seen it used like that... but I would translate 私はハンカチをしめらせた。as: I allowed the cloth to become damp. The cloth can obviously not dampen itself, so such a translation simply doesn't make sense.

Causative Vs. Transitive - nadiatims - 2009-09-14

indeed. The causative often translates better to letting or having someone do something, or allowing something to happen.
eg:
公園で小さい子供を遊ばせる

Causative Vs. Transitive - Virtua_Leaf - 2009-09-18

Thanks for the response guys.

So if I see an inanimate object being used with the causative construction, I should just assume it as having the 'let' nuance?

I just found another example in the book that made me think:

私は冷蔵庫でミルクをこおらせた。
Lit. I made milk freeze (=I froze milk) in the refrigerator.

I then searched both the causative form of こおる and that same word's transitive version こおらす into Google and yielded these two sentences:

コーラをこおらす
コーラをこおらせる

All nuances aside, do these sentences essentially mean the same thing? Could I bung a 私が at the beginning of both and they'd pretty much have the same meaning?

Causative Vs. Transitive - QuackingShoe - 2009-09-18

Tobberoth Wrote:I shouldn't be sticking my nose into this, because I really don't feel comfortable with causative being used for inanimate things, I've never really heard or seen it used like that...
Do you consider body parts? Because that's probably the single most common way I see the causative used, making your own body do something in narrative.　目を輝かせる, for example.