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RTK Boredom? - SugaHOLiC - 2009-09-08
Hello! This is my first time posting here. I'm determined to learn Japanese, but I have run into a problem that is constantly eating away at my time and making me really frustrated. I started RTK 1 at the beginning of the year. I would eagerly open my book and do my reviews, starting with 5 then moving to 10, 20 and such. Some days I would miss reviews or new Kanji because of school and then I would have a lot to catch up with. This went on for a while until I got to around June. I started to feel really bored with RKT. I have no idea what it was but I just felt overwhelmed at the amount of Kanji I was doing. To help myself I cut back the number of Kanji I did and my number got smaller and smaller until I stopped reviewing at all. This lasted for two months. I recently started to review again, in full force, and at first it was enthralling and I was liking it, but now I'm running into the same problem. Boredom. I know that it is not the act of learning new Kanji that makes me bored, it is, rather, the massive amount of reviewing that goes along with it (I'm up to #1299 in RTK1). I'm almost done with the book and I really want to finish, but it seems like I'll never get done when it takes me hours to finish my reviews. Have any of you just breezed through RTK1 with nor reviewing at all? I know that reviewing is an imporant part of RTK, and I feel that it is a step I shouldn't skip, but I don't know what else to do. Please, if anyone can help me and try to give me some advise I'd really appreciate it.
Kay
RTK Boredom? - mezbup - 2009-09-08
If you don't review your retention rate would probably be around 25% IMO.
It's a bit of a hard slog to get RTK done as those of us who've completed all know. Yes it gets boring halfway through when the honeymoon period is over and you realize that it's a butt load of hard work to learn something that doesn't seem to be getting you anywhere right now.
You just gotta stick to your guns and trudge through it til' your done and then you can sit back and dive into the exciting part with much more confidence and ease.
Do you do any other kind of study on the side? Maybe if it's too much just doing RTK, supplement your learning with other fun things that aren't so serious. It might help you relax a little.
RTK Boredom? - avparker - 2009-09-08
SugaHOLiC Wrote:I know that it is not the act of learning new Kanji that makes me bored, it is, rather, the massive amount of reviewing that goes along with it (I'm up to #1299 in RTK1).Funny, I have the opposite problem. I'm at 1879 and I have no problem doing my reviews each day (50-70), but I have trouble getting motivation to add new Kanji!
How long do your reviews take?
I'm reviewing about 50-70 a day, and find it doesn't take that long (haven't kept track, maybe 15-20mins tops).
It certainly takes a lot less time than my Anki reviews of sentences, which take me about an hour and tend to pile up during the week.
As for why to review - if you don't you will forget!
I finished once before, last year, and stopped reviewing about a month later. Very bad decision, I ended up forgetting a lot. It's easier the second time, but better to review and not forget in the first place.
RTK Boredom? - Ryuujin27 - 2009-09-08
I've been trying to do RtK for about 2 years now, haha.
I wouldn't worry about it too much. In the time that I've been trying to complete RtK, I've still managed to have more kanji knowledge then anyone else I know studying Japanese, including those around me passing 1級, as well as being able to hold conversations and read novels in Japanese.
My most recent RtK failure came when I had to reset my anki deck when I was around 1850. Big disappointment for me, but I since rocketed back to 500 and there I stay for the past 3 weeks. Oh well, still learning new stuff, just not too many new kanji.
RTK Boredom? - SugaHOLiC - 2009-09-08
mezbup Wrote:Do you do any other kind of study on the side? Maybe if it's too much just doing RTK, supplement your learning with other fun things that aren't so serious. It might help you relax a little.Yeah, I've thought over and over again I should just get it over with and do it,but my motivation is lacking, it seems...
Actually, I have already started miming sentences in my SRS. I'm doing Tae Kim as well as sentences from the Japanese class I need to take in university. I wish I didn't have to take that class, but I need it to graduate.
I actually do fine with the other decks, it's just the RTK one I get bored with.
avparker Wrote:Funny, I have the opposite problem. I'm at 1879 and I have no problem doing my reviews each day (50-70), but I have trouble getting motivation to add new Kanji!I love reviewing my sentences! I can do that all day~ Adding them's a pain, but once they are in the SRS, I love to review them.
How long do your reviews take?
I'm reviewing about 50-70 a day, and find it doesn't take that long (haven't kept track, maybe 15-20mins tops).
It certainly takes a lot less time than my Anki reviews of sentences, which take me about an hour and tend to pile up during the week.
I'd say it maybe takes me an 1-2 hours to complete reviews. This is mainly due to the fact that I get so bored I start doing other things. Then, later I'll come back and finish up more Kanji. I don't really time myself that often because it's not important to me... This only happens with the RTK deck. I can get through all my sentences without stopping once.
Kay
RTK Boredom? - SugaHOLiC - 2009-09-08
Ryuujin27 Wrote:I've been trying to do RtK for about 2 years now, haha.Two years!? Wow, that's a long time. Do you do more sentences than reviews? I, personally, find sentences much more interesting. I was trying to come up with a method to do RTK with sentences but I can't seem to figure anything good out...
Kay
RTK Boredom? - hknamida - 2009-09-09
SugaHOLiC Wrote:I was trying to come up with a method to do RTK with sentences but I can't seem to figure anything good out...Did you try something like this?
彼女は恋愛に＿れる年頃です。（あこがれる）
RTK Boredom? - dawhite - 2009-09-09
I gave up at 1293 two years ago, so, worst comes to worst, you are six kanji more hardcore than me.
Of course, then I did it again, but it wasn't any more fun the second time. I never managed a solution to that boredom problem, but I did come up with sort of a workaround. I had the exact same problem that you did with reviewing, and what I ended up doing was this: I learned new kanji, occasionally interspersing limited reviews, until it was too late at night (and I'm talking 3:00 towards the beginning and 5:00 towards the end) to even conceive of starting my reviews later. Then, I started doing reviews. Distraction was no problem because if I wanted to sleep, I would have to finish the reviews. Of course, this technique might not be possible depending on your daily schedule and might kill you. I guess it's sort of enforced timeboxing... I don't know. Probably not great.
Another solution might be cocaine.
RTK Boredom? - blackmacros - 2009-09-09
dawhite Wrote:Another solution might be cocaine.Cocaine is always the solution.
RTK Boredom? - mezbup - 2009-09-09
blackmacros Wrote:Grinding through it and getting it done is the solution. Doing it IS the solution.dawhite Wrote:Another solution might be cocaine.Cocaine is always the solution.
RTK Boredom? - dawhite - 2009-09-09
mezbup Wrote:The best part about that sentence is that every single part (except possibly "getting it done") could refer to either the Kanji or cocaine.blackmacros Wrote:Grinding through it and getting it done is the solution. Doing it IS the solution.dawhite Wrote:Another solution might be cocaine.Cocaine is always the solution.
I wonder if we have discovered a hidden kinship?
RTK Boredom? - zodiac - 2009-09-09
@SugaHOLiC:
I think you'll have to give more information for us to see where the problem might be, including your reviews due per day, time spent reviewing per day and retention rate. If RTK is done properly there will be some boredom, but if you're experiencing lots of it maybe we can look more closely at your method?
RTK Boredom? - aphasiac - 2009-09-09
SugaHOLiC Wrote:I'd say it maybe takes me an 1-2 hours to complete reviews. This is mainly due to the fact that I get so bored I start doing other things. Then, later I'll come back and finish up more Kanji. I don't really time myself that often because it's not important to me... This only happens with the RTK deck. I can get through all my sentences without stopping once.your reviews shouldn't be more than 100 a day - so should take around 20-30 minutes! 1-2 hours is crazy.
I could suggest a few changes to your study method: try doing the reviews at the same time every day (make them part of your daily schedule), don't allow yourself to do fun stuff until you've finished them, cut down on sugar/caffeine (it makes you hyper and can impede concentration).
But end of the day there's nothing we can do to make SRSing less "boring" for you - you just have to knuckle down and do it. Keep motivated by remembering the goal at the end; you'll soon be reading real Japanese!
RTK Boredom? - Codexus - 2009-09-09
@aphasiac: so basically your advice is "you're slow, don't be slow"?
100 reviews in 20 minutes is really fast, do you properly write each kanji? Do you take some time to investigate your mistakes?
I takes me about 30 minutes for 50 reviews. The number of reviews can also very easily climb up to 150 a day when progressing at a steady pace. So already 1h30 but if you're not able to stay relatively focused for that time, due to being tired, distracted, bored or whatever it can very easily double (or worse).
@OP:
Yes, finishing RtK is boring, reviewing the kanji after you've finished, even more so. But the key here is motivation, you want to learn Japanese, right? You really, *really* want it? I know you want to be the guy who made it even though it was hard, not the quitter that started and gave up as soon as it became too much effort. Then spend some time remembering why you want to do that. Once you have your motivation back, just make it your #1 priority and do it
RTK Boredom? - b0ng0 - 2009-09-09
Yeah it can get boring. Reviewing gets boring no matter how spicey you try to make it. But if you keep at it, eventually it will be a breeze and you'll start to realise the benefits of it.
Just think of it as part of your day like brushing your teeth or having a shower. At least you know you're doing somethign productive if not particularly fun, it has benefits.
RTK Boredom? - avparker - 2009-09-09
Codexus Wrote:100 reviews in 20 minutes is really fast, do you properly write each kanji? Do you take some time to investigate your mistakes?FYI: I timed myself tonight.
I takes me about 30 minutes for 50 reviews.
66 reviews in 13:21 minutes. I got 60/66 (90%, I normally get 92-95%).
I did this in 2 chunks (37 in 7:45, and 29 in 5:36) with a break in between where I got a drink and then did 10mins of sentence reviews in Anki.
I write out each kanji.
I don't think that long if I can't write it, I mark it as failed.
I don't stop for failed Kanji while reviewing, I re-study them afterwards (sometimes I don't even bother if I was close, just seeing it again corrects it).
13 mins might be slightly faster than normal because I was aware of being timed,
but 15-20 minutes would be normal. 30 minutes seems a bit slow.
I'm "fortunate" that I've been taking it slow, so I don't get more than 100 reviews. I had "150 reviews" days the last time I did RTK, and it is a bit daunting. The only choices are to slow down your pace of adding new Kanji, or suck it up
.PS: I agree with the other posters - keep in mind your goal. I think RTK is worth the effort. 頑張って！
RTK Boredom? - Nukemarine - 2009-09-09
Yet another reason why one should base reviewing on time, and not on due cards. Yesterday, I looked at over 300 cards in three hours (60 RTK, 20 Grammar, 30 Drama, 180 Vocabulary). There was still new vocabulary cards left to add (maybe 4 cards) but I didn't bother cause my time was up.
I'm pretty keen on what my time per type of review card is, but that's kind of irrelevant to anyone else that does not review like I do.
Thinking back two years ago when I was doing RTK, I do remember getting bored when my reviewing and adding got hot and heavy. Again, it got easier once I began putting limits on what I could do in a day. Instead of reviewing with the feeling "This never ends" it turned into "Oh, it's over already" per day. What was added got added naturally and before I knew it, I was just worrying about doing stories for missed cards.
RTK Boredom? - ruiner - 2009-09-09
For sentences, I often do 10 minute blocks, usually I think I do 50 sentence reps in that period. If there's a higher ratio of new cards mixed in, it might be around 35-40. I listen/emulate/write in varying amounts. I never check stats, but at the end of three 10 minute blocks, on a bad day I'll have 15 failed cards.
I find I go faster if I'm aware of being timed but don't think about the time I have left, I just allow a kind of gentle pressure to become conducive to my 'flow'.
I also don't linger on failed cards, I just fail them, and sometimes if it's close, like av said, I'll just let the realization that I got it wrong and subsequent feedback act as a quick 'restudy' and I won't fail it, just grade it 'hard'.
It's really rare that I spend more than an hour a day doing reps--usually it's less. That's not counting adding and studying new cards, however.
As per my 'time hacks' thread, my favourite is to do descending intervals w/ non-English breaks, starting from 20--one thing I noticed is that w/ 20 minutes, I usually speed up towards the end, so I'll end up doing over 100 reps in that space and feel more energized afterwards. 10 minute blocks are reserved for when I'm switching between Japanese/non-Japanese and doing the (10+2)*5 hack.
Also, I try to regularly do un-timeboxed sessions--when I get my moods right between structure/spontaneity of doing timeboxing or not, I really get into the zone and end up knocking out all my reviews for the day before I know it.
RTK Boredom? - calderra - 2009-09-10
SugaHOLiC Wrote:Some days I would miss reviewsI'm a newcomer, I admit, but I think that's the single biggest factor in this method. RTK isn't something you can just do for a little bit each day and hope it all adds up, it's something you have to be immersed in. The success stories for RTK almost invariably involve someone whose only limiting factor in kanji/day was a mimimum amount of new and/or review per day they refused to go lower than.
And that's true of language in general. I've studied Spanish and German on and off for a decade (and Japanese for over a year btw), and I'm still not even up to tourist level in either (or, any). I'm finally fully putting together that you can't ever learn any language -beyond "The cat is under the table"- unless you're comitted to immersion.
So set minimum daily goals for RTK- even if you just have to drill old cards until it hurts to meet your quota- and realize the goal isn't RTK, it's fluency. I find it hard to believe I'd really ever be bored with this method considering how I'm already recognizing characters I've learned in real texts, something I was not at all able to accomplish with any other method. Seeing primitives in unfamiliar kanji is even more exciting- surely I'll be figuring them out in the near future.
Unless fluency really isn't your goal and you're actually fine with just carrying a tourist phrasebook, in which case this is not the course for you anyway.
RTK Boredom? - NightSky - 2009-09-10
Language learning should be fun. I think that once you are bored with something you should just relax and spend more time studying another part of the language that you find interesting. That way you never get too bored and are always learning new things, and improving different aspects of your Japanese.
Admittedly with RTK, you should at least try and keep up with your reviews. If I were you, Id keep reviewing what I had already studied but stopping adding cards for a while. Then go find some decent drama to watch or something else enjoyable to do
After a while, the daily reviews will fall and it wont take up that much time. From that point its easy to start thinking "il just add a few more...." and get right back on track.
RTK Boredom? - Offshore - 2009-09-10
I can relate to symptoms of boredom you experience. Although I'm a little ways behind you (1080 kanji), I first started burning out on RtK awhile ago, around the 700's I really started slacking.
I started RtK seriously around February this year, and as of September, I'm just past the halfway point. Slow progress for some, but I do believe that everyone experiences periods of burnout during RtK. For the people who have schedules that don't really allow for learning amounts of 50-100 new kanji a day and can't finish RtK within a 2-3month period, RtK can easily drag itself out.
I started out my RtK experience very excited and eager. I was doing 20 new kanji a day, and kept up with my reviews and new kanji at least 4-5 days a week. Once I hit 600 though, I started losing interest. Although there were 2-3 times this year I completely gave up RtK for a week or 2 at a time and ended up with 200-300 reviews, those times were rare. 98% of the time, even if I'm not motivated enough to learn new kanji, I always keep up my reviews.
I think many complete newcomers to Japanese will become bored with RtK sooner or later, depending on RL situations and such. Before I started RtK, and even today, I only know some basic phrases and hiragana/katakana.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that for people with near zero knowledge of Japanese, it's tough to keep yourself enthusiastic with RtK because of the sheer fact that you cannot make many connections to it actually helping you get any better with the language. Sure, we can recognize some kanji and such now, and it does feel amazing, but that feeling loses its potency after you've done 500-1000 kanji, and start thinking about "man, I've still gotta do this for another 1000+ kanji."
Ultimately, it is all about motivation. For me, I have gotten back into the kanji grind pretty well this week (banged out 100ish kanji so far). I'm trying to push push push to get RtK done before New Year's, just so I can say it's done. The thought of starting to sentence mine things I'm interested in and actually start LEARNING the language and piecing it together gives me the motivation to keep working hard.
On a final note: For me, and maybe others, getting motivated is easier said than done. I live in an area where most people I know couldn't even tell you where Japan is located. As I have few friends as it is, finding anyone of Asian descent, or even someone interested in it, is nigh impossible. It's one of the things I really wish I had in my life. Although my family is supportive for the most part, they, and people I work with, start to drag me down after awhile.
Everyone I know thinks I'm some crazy nerd who wants to learn Japanese so I can get laid in Japan one day. I'm not kidding either, sadly. No one really understands what passion is I guess. Add on the fact that so many people ask me "so you can write all these crazy symbols, now say something in Japanese to me," or "so you watch shows and movies in Japanese, but you can't understand anything? You know the symbols, but you can't read anything? Why do you even bother then?!?!" I know none of this is true and my motivation is stronger than the condescending remarks, but after hearing it over and over again for almost a year now, it really does wear you down at times.
Sorry for this extremely long post, but I feel it's an important aspect of RtK to discuss.
RTK Boredom? - mattimus - 2009-09-11
Hey there, this is my first post (and it's going to probably be my only post until RtK1 is done). I'm just taking a little break and figured I'd throw in my 2 cents here.
I'm three weeks into RtK and I just finished section two of RtK today (508 kanji). Every morning I eat breakfast, fire up Anki, do the reviews I'm assigned, workout, then go to work. Every day after work, at 6pm, instead of driving home I drive to the library, sit at a desk, and learn at least twenty kanji. Go home, enter them into Anki, sleep, rinse, repeat. I will have finished RtK in just over three months, this is non-negotiable. Emotional highs, lows, and boredom do not enter into the equation- I'm just following a plan.
As a runner I learned one of the most important lessons of my young (25) life: virtue is developed through habit. This applies to every facet of your life. Want to be a runner? Run every other day. Don't feel like running? Do it anyway, it's on the schedule. Soon (much sooner that you think), the "I don't feel like it" part of your brain will atrophy and die, and you will find that you have come to love your new schedule; not running would feel strange. Want to eat better? Fill your fridge with fruits and vegetables. Don't feel like eating them? You'll come to love them, just get outside your comfort zone in a consistent pattern until you've incorporated your goals into a part of daily life.
"Discipline is when you tell yourself to do something, and you don't talk back."
You don't have to be miserable, you just have to summon up the willpower to wake up, drink a cup of coffee, lace up your shoes, and step outside. The rest always takes care of itself.
Best of luck, fellow RtK-ers.
RTK Boredom? - undead_saif - 2009-09-11
SugaHOLiC Wrote:...RTK becomes more and more boring after the half way mark, but more and more easier as you become better with mnemonics and kanji!
Try Timeboxing and alternating between adding new kanji and reviewing due cards, if I start my day with doing all the reviews I usually become burnt out and adding new cards becomes hard! (Thanks to blackmacros
)Keep reminding yourself about the reward of finishing RTK
It works for me.
RTK Boredom? - SugaHOLiC - 2009-09-11
I want to thank everyone for their responses! I have been thinking hard on this topic since I made my original post and I feel that, right now, I'm going to stop adding new cards and catch up on reviews, while adding more sentences and learning new grammar. I know I'm probably rushing into grammar and sentences but I'm taking Japanese language classes in my university (because I need them to graduate. I'd rather -not- have to take this classes) so I'm using sentences and grammar from my book.
I've been thinking, that since I took a two month break and then started up with Kanji again I was overwhelmed with the amount of Kanji to review (and I also forgot a lot of what I learned). I think that I need to review what I already learned, just so I can remember again and get my strength back. I'll still be reviewing sentences and stuff from my book so I'll be doing studying on the side. Plus, I always listen to Japanese. Literally. It's all I listen to, so I get that practice. (I'm listening to End of Eva audio right now~)
Thanks for your help everyone, I really appreciate it! I -do- really, really, REALLY want to learn Japanese. I need to just keep looking forward and remembering my goals!
Kay
RTK Boredom? - bizarrojosh - 2009-09-23
I just got out of a 4 day slump. In Japan here its been Silver week and the week before that we had sports day at my schools. So last week I was so exhausted from the sports day, had a speech contest that I had to attend and then had a five day weekend. All of this added up to my routine being changed and me not being able to add any new cards for 4 days. I just caught up yesterday and was able to add about 24 new cards, but it put me back by about 80. I got bored to be honest. I had a taste of laziness (Data, why did you fly around the left side of the moon?) and it was nice, but now its time for business.
So why did I write all of that? Because even though my normal routine was thrown off I still managed to do *something* each day (even if it was only reviewing 15 cards....). Now that I'm back on track it feels nice and I'm reinvigorated. Like everyone else has said, don't completely stop your reviews (or adding cards if that's what you like better), but don't worry if you get behind. Just keep the goal in mind, allow yourself some free time and then get reinvigorated!!!