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Multiple meanings - ericshun - 2007-02-28
ファブリス Wrote:幽か 【かすか】 (adj-na,n) faint, dim, weak, indistinct, hazy, poor, wretchedI have been wondering about this for a while, but maybe the keyword is just a label, and what we should all really be doing is identifying chiefly with the feeling that the kanji is intended to provoke, NOT the keyword.
For example, you may imagine that Frodo and Sam became very weak, and actually became hazy as some kind of magical effect of the spider's poison. Then when you recall the image you have directly the right concept in mind.
The kanji also means "deep and remote, secluded", hence the mountain radical. So you can make a story closer to the meaning, or closer to the primitives that the kanji contains (the origin of the character, if it's an old one). The best is to try and get the meaning as well as the primitives in the story in the way that makes a little sense and also carries the concept.
In Fabrice's above example, the kanji used has a variety of meanings, and thus provokes a certain feeling and mood. What we should be trying to do is connect that feeling with the Kanji, and somehow create a story that conveys this feeling under the constraint that the primitives be referenced in the imagery of the story that you are creating. I think this is the ideal situation.
A word in Japanese, just like in English, can be used in a variety of contexts and can have multiple meanings. When we hear a certain word, say... "friction" in English, it has many meanings. When I hear this word, I feel a little claustrophobic, like something is awry. I think of heat and a match lighting, and I even feel a little aroused. From all these individual meanings, this one word has created a feeling or mood, something more complex than a single meaning. If we were to translate "friction" into Japanese, it could possibly be a word that has only one of these meanings in common in addition to a slew of completely new meanings. In other words, the feel of the word and the situations in which it is used could be (and probably are) totally different. The feel of the word is the core.
Fabrice mentioned that when you read the Kanji, it is much easier if you connect with the feel of the words because then you have the instincts that you are supposed to have. Heck, it might even be useful for when you want to write something! You can feel your way through what you are trying to say...
BUT... if this is not possible, it is at least good to create a limmerick or funny imagery (like the Cartman story) so that you can at least have an intermediary way of getting to where you want to be.
Thoughts?
Multiple meanings - JimmySeal - 2007-02-28
It's hard to know what point you're trying to make because you're continuing a discussion from another thread without saying which thread it is. From where did you take that quotation?
Multiple meanings - Jawful - 2007-03-01
From the favorite stories thread.
While I want to learn the feeling behind the kanji, I also want to get them under my belt as quickly as possible. I'm learning Japanese separately, and even learning the language you don't get the feeling of a phrase until you see it in use. I want to attach the words I learn to the kanji I know, then I will know the true feeling from the Japanese word, rather than relying on my English crutch. And that's all I want from the English word, a crutch that will help me until I can put it into the proper context.
I want the story itself to clearly paint out the elements of the kanji, and leave out the extra. If the extra told me what it really meant, that's great, but the more you put in, the easier, I feel, it is to mix it up later.
I do enjoy reading the stories you guys make up about kanji with more meaning in it. As long as you know how it is actually used in Japanese, there is no problem with a story like that. I just don't feel like I can do that properly quite yet.
Then again, some of you have finished RTK1 so maybe you're insight is better than mine.
Multiple meanings - RoboTact - 2007-03-01
I always read all translations given by rikaichan and sometimes compounds with kanji before selecting/creating a story to make sure that image describes something related to correct meaning of kanji, not just english keyword. Heisig himself made that error occasionally, playing with letters of englsh keyword in his stories.
Multiple meanings - dingomick - 2007-03-01
I never write a story before consulting all the compounds in Wakan. I've discovered numerous kanji whose keywords simply can't grasp the broader meaning in common use compounds. I try to always include these in my stories or make a note. So while I keep the keyword, I'm also already directly applying it to useful vocabulary.
Some off the top of my head are 便 convenience (common use in anything mail related) and 踊 jump (which almost solely means dance).
Multiple meanings - JimmySeal - 2007-03-01
I think you guys are making a whole lot of unnecessary work for yourselves and putting the cart out in front of the horse, so to speak.
Jawful has the right idea, except I wouldn't call the keywords a crutch. Crutches are for cripples. The keywords are 2042 cubbyholes to store the kanji until you learn actual useful information.
In a few cases, Heisig's keywords are a bit off the mark (村 町 and 乙 spring to mind), but for the most part I have found that most of them are very well chosen to encapsulate the connotation of the kanji without any need for extra information.
I did look up a few kanji along the way for keywords that could potentially mean widely different things (wound, for example), but I would certainly not look up 犯 to get the perfect "feeling" of it. You'll figure that out when you start using it in Japanese. There's no reason to try to put everything into your story and keyword. You're just shooting yourself in the foot.
For several kanji, I would say that there's no one keyword that can encompass all of the character's meanings. I defy you to find a catch-all keyword for 準 in 準備 and 準優秀賞 or 唐 in 唐辛子 in 唐突. A lot of critics criticize Heisig because they say that the keywords and stories don't really teach you the real meaning of the kanji. They say this because they don't understand the purpose of the stories and keywords, and I feel that you guys are making the same error.
Multiple meanings - dingomick - 2007-03-01
JimmySeal, I agree with your assertions about the purpose of keywords, and I still utilize them as such. But it's no extra effort for me to include that further purposeful bit of info in a story that will trigger my mind. It never twists or distorts the story, because it encompasses the keyword/meaning already! It simply embellishes it. I have found these further ties to be useful for quicker recall, and never a hindrance. Readings and vocabulary are all seperate and later steps to be tackled, and I am treating them as such. This tweak simply makes those future tasks a bit more organized.