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+--- Thread: Don't sit the JLPT (/thread-3766.html)
Don't sit the JLPT - thecite - 2009-08-14
I, like many other users of this site began off thinking "JLPT, sure, that's what I should aim for, that's a good way to learn Japanese", then I started using alternate methods (AJATT), and it became more a matter of "Sure, I'll take the JLPT eventually, to get a job easier...", but then I found this post from Khatz, and the deal has been sealed. Don't aim for the JLPT.
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/git-up-git-up-git-down-jlpt-is-the-joke-in-yo-town-why-i-hate-the-jlpt-and-why-its-a-waste-of-your-time-and-money
Sure, make up your own mind, but everything he says on there makes complete sense. Opened up my eyes, I may never take the JLPT now.
Sorry if this has previously been posted, couldn't find it.
Don't sit the JLPT - Nii87 - 2009-08-14
Interesting post. But I'm still going to do it =)
Don't sit the JLPT - liosama - 2009-08-14
kaz my moto Wrote:You have a resume in Japanese. - My friend could do this for meDon't people usually look at a resume BEFORE an interview. These things on paper are needed regardless of how useless they really are. Universities won't give a flying fart how good your Japanese is without some sort of official documentation 'proving' it is at least at some level.
Your name is kanjified.. - My friend could do this for me
Your cover letter is in Japanese.. - My friend could do this for me
You talk to HR on the phone in Japanese, and they have to ask your nationality to make sure, because they thought a gaijin was supposed to be calling.. - My friend could do this for me - Or, I could do it and get away with it
You also write HR emails in Japanese.- My friend could do this for me
Your interview is in Japanese. Interview: a one hour Q/A session on academic/technical subjects. - Nothing here
Not to mention the essay you submitted days before the interview, which you discuss and liberally quote from. - My friend could do this for me
He is right in some sense, but you can't *not* take it.
Don't sit the JLPT - bombpersons - 2009-08-14
It's really a shame Universities, etc are like that. If they'd just look further than qualifications, and take into account other things.
Sure I could have passed JLPT 2, 3 years ago. Doesn't mean I have continued to study, I could have slacked of and be back at square one. So qualifications don't say that much about the current situation.
Don't sit the JLPT - Tobberoth - 2009-08-14
Khazu is incorrect in that post, so making up your mind using it as a base: bad idea.
Do you want work in Japan? Then you need an interview.
Do you want an interview? Then you need JLPT.
JLPT is usually a requirement, there's nothing more to say about it.
His post is about as useful as me saying "Who needs a computer science degree, I've owned a computer since I was a kid, I know my way around computers. A degree would do nothing for me."
Don't sit the JLPT - brianobush - 2009-08-14
If you study Japanese using AJATT method (or something akin to it), a good way to benchmark your success is by taking a standardized exam. If you can't pass JLPT3 and think you are fluent, then something is off. Use it as a personal gauge.
Don't sit the JLPT - brianobush - 2009-08-14
Tobberoth Wrote:"Who needs a computer science degree, I've owned a computer since I was a kid, I know my way around computers. A degree would do nothing for me."So correct. I have worked with people like this... they do things (most of the time haphazardly), but have no grasp of the underlying mechanics.
Don't sit the JLPT - mentat_kgs - 2009-08-14
You forgot these:
Quote:Then you get the job - my friend could this for me... and it goes on and on
Then you go to work - my friend could this for me
Don't sit the JLPT - koyota - 2009-08-14
The jlpt is fine as a goal point if you use it as an output Goal too. The problem with The jlpt is it far too easy of a test, if your goal is just to pass the test.
Choosing multiple choice answers really is not that much of a challenge. I passed the Jlpt 1 and freely admit I can't produce the language in any comprehensible way in real-time. (In extremely broken Japanese I mix in vocab that ranges from anime to vocab that you would only see in college thesis and same in terms of grammar, meanwhile making even basic mistakes that I know are wrong as soon as I say them.).
Even for Kanji it's kinda silly, Seeing the kanji reading Just makes it pop up into my mind even If I've forgotten iT, much less any type of testing if you can write the kanji. The kanji 漢字検定 Makes you write the kanji from memory, shoot for it as a goal you'll be doing yourself better.
Don't sit the JLPT - ghinzdra - 2009-08-14
I m still non plussed at how some people take everything Khatzu says for granted....
a bit of critical thinking won t hurt you know ?
khatz is a motivationnal speaker . He s great for building confidence , giving you momentum etc.... but it doesn t mean everything he says is right for all that.
I m getting sick of people who says this test isn t a good indicator of japanese skills so it s not worth to pass it bla bla
let get me this right :
1- a (public) test passed with success is a title : it gives you rights .
And please no argument about wether it s fair or not . You deal with the world the way it is , no the way it should be .
it gives you the right to sit in some japanese university that demands the JPLT 2 or 1.
it gives you the right to get an interview for a job as if you don t have it you won t even survive the screening process in most companies.
in the future it could give you the very right to stay in japan as the diet has already debated about making the JPLT a condition for getting a visa.
not bad huh....
2 a test is an objective: you know exactly what you re working for . So you know exactly when you have succeeded and what you need to do .
If you re interested in efficiency setting precise objectives is not bad either you know...
3 a test is a trial : when you succeed a trial you gain momentum , confidence (Especially when you know most other candidates failed ) which you can use for something else . If you don t have this confidence fuel it s hard to do something bigger later .
4 last but not least JPLT never said it tested output . It s just like TOEIC. But both of them are still appreciated by companies . Why ? because it s still a good test of your understanding . JPLT is based on joyos which are the basis of kanji knowledge . If you think you can master japanese without kanjis good luck....
JPLT is just a tool . And if you don t know exactly what is the precise purpose of a tool you re bound to misuse it . Just as you do now.
Don't sit the JLPT - LazyNomad - 2009-08-14
For me JLPT is some kind of the "driving license". Theoretically you can be a good driver prior to taking driving license exam, but you have no legal rights to drive without it. While preparing for driving exams you have to learn different stuff that you might not use even one time during your life, but still it is the requirement.
I support everything that Khatzu said about JLPT, but still I am going to take it. And after succeding in it, I will criticize JLPT myself.
Don't sit the JLPT - abdwef - 2009-08-14
brianobush Wrote:John Carmack is an outstanding programmer, and he doesn't have a computer science degree.Tobberoth Wrote:"Who needs a computer science degree, I've owned a computer since I was a kid, I know my way around computers. A degree would do nothing for me."So correct. I have worked with people like this... they do things (most of the time haphazardly), but have no grasp of the underlying mechanics.
Don't sit the JLPT - rich_f - 2009-08-14
Until there's something better, that's what there is. "The Man" wants a piece of paper that proves you know something. This is that piece of paper for now, until there's a better piece of paper.
I don't see what the fuss is all about. This is just to get you in the door. In the interview, they'll find out just how good you *really* are at Japanese.
Don't sit the JLPT - ghinzdra - 2009-08-14
LazyNomad Wrote:For me JLPT is some kind of the "driving license". Theoretically you can be a good driver prior to taking driving license exam, but you have no legal rights to drive without it. While preparing for driving exams you have to learn different stuff that you might not use even one time during your life, but still it is the requirement.It s not that what Khatzu says is wrong.... it s just biased ,incomplete. He s focused on japanese abilities while a test is always more than a mere ability issue.
I support everything that Khatzu said about JLPT, but still I am going to take it. And after succeding in it, I will criticize JLPT myself.
Don't sit the JLPT - LazyNomad - 2009-08-14
ghinzdra, that is what I am saying.
Japan is the society that likes bureaucracy and "following the way" method of doing things. If you look at a CV of any Japanese sarariman, you understand how much importance they give to different kinds of certificates and licences. It is not only JLPT that is biased, it`s a Japanese (perception of reality that is biased in some sense) culture.
It is easier to take JLPT, than try to convince Japanese that your knowledge of language doesn`t need any kind of official certificate.
Don't sit the JLPT - kyeenak - 2009-08-14
I am also interested on the practical use of the JLPT. If anybody has any experiences where it helped, or didn't help at all, it'd be interesting to hear.
I'm currently at a University Prep school in Japan for foreigners. I studied mathematics/physics for 3 years in the US, worked as a programmer, etc before coming to Japan, so for me the college prep school is 100% Japanese. However I haven't yet seen anything about JLPT requirements for applying as an undergraduate or masters student here, and most of my fellow classmates aren't even attempting the JLPT.
I've also been casually looking for part-time work here, and haven't seen any requirements for JLPT yet. However I've been mostly looking at English teaching jobs, and Japanese job listings in/for Japanese, so this is probably a horrible sample.
From what I understand JLPT seems to help most when applying for visas, work from overseas, etc. I don't think the JLPT will ever hurt your application... So if you're at, or close, to the level where you can pass the JLPT, it seems like you might as well take it.
The above is only what I've seen in Japan for my personal needs, so please don't take it like fact!
(P.S. Does anybody know about visa information for Japanese decedents? When I search I only find stuff about the Brazilian issues... Talk about the worst place to ask... but it doesn't hurt!)
Don't sit the JLPT - oregum - 2009-08-14
Khatzu, is misleading you brother. It may not be almost necessary, but it's ... um ... almost necessary.
I was in the Business Circle of 上智大学 (Sophia University) and we ran all of the Job Fairs/Forums on campus. And guess what every company wanted their Job candidate to have - JLPT 2 or 1.
I'm generalizing, but... If you didn't have JLPT2 = don't apply.
Sorry to break it to you, if you want a Job interview, you need to prove you are qualified. To prove you are qualified, you need credentials.
Don't sit the JLPT - ghinzdra - 2009-08-14
Well if you want something practical : to get into one of the school of waseda university it s required to have either JPLT2 or 1.
2 for school of commerce , asian studies and another one I don t remember
1 for every other school.
Don't sit the JLPT - nest0r - 2009-08-14
The key is more like, once you know whether and why and when you need/want to take the JLPT--and if you want to do something 'official' related to Japanese it's a safe bet, in this sadly certificate-centric world, that you will need it--then will you allow 'passing the JLPT' to control you or will you use it to temper your self-study.
Don't sit the JLPT - ghinzdra - 2009-08-14
I guess it depends on the business sector....
if you re applying for a computer related job .... but if it s a 総合商社 .... good luck. I would be utterly delighted if I was disproved.
Don't sit the JLPT - kyeenak - 2009-08-14
I'd also like to add I know people who have gotten into a wide variety of schools (private and public) in many majors (sciences and the arts), who haven't passed JLPT 1.
Keep in mind this is applying as a full time student, *not* an exchange, and from within Japan. My friends had to send an application, essays , phone and person interviews, as well as the individual school's exam (that all Japanese have to take), all in Japanese. I don't know if this is the exception or the norm, however.
So the site linked on the top does hold at least some truth.
Don't sit the JLPT - oregum - 2009-08-14
It depends on what type of University you are trying to get into (degree student mostly, not part-time or transfer).
Public Universities require a test. Long and hard test that Japanese student spend all of HS preparing for. I personally don't know any foreigner who attend a Public University so I can't comment on the relevance of the JLPT.
Private Universites reguire a test or equivalent. If you are trying to get into a department in which the classes use English as the primary language, you may be able to get having taken the SAT. If you are applying to a department that uses Japanese as the primary language (ie. all classes are taught in Japanese) you will need to prove that you understand Japanese. In some universities that means JLPT2 in others they will give you a Japanese test.
Don't sit the JLPT - Jaunty - 2009-08-14
abdwef Wrote:Obviously we can find exceptions to this principle - that's not the point. People like Carmack are successful because they made a name for themselves on their own. Keep in mind game design was easier to break into back then since there was a lot more that could be done by a few guys in their basement - not that it doesn't happen nowadays though (the guys who made Counter Strike come to mind). A path like Carmack's - founding your own company - cannot be counted on as a life strategy for everyone. If you're competing for a job and don't have the credentials then it often won't matter how good you are in reality - your resume won't get a second look. Not having credentials won't bar you from finding a good job, but it will make it that much harder since you'll have to prove yourself before you're on the same playing field as everyone else.brianobush Wrote:John Carmack is an outstanding programmer, and he doesn't have a computer science degree.Tobberoth Wrote:"Who needs a computer science degree, I've owned a computer since I was a kid, I know my way around computers. A degree would do nothing for me."So correct. I have worked with people like this... they do things (most of the time haphazardly), but have no grasp of the underlying mechanics.
Don't sit the JLPT - thorstenu - 2009-08-14
abdwef Wrote:Thats why there is a difference between programmers and computer scientists.brianobush Wrote:John Carmack is an outstanding programmer, and he doesn't have a computer science degree.Tobberoth Wrote:"Who needs a computer science degree, I've owned a computer since I was a kid, I know my way around computers. A degree would do nothing for me."So correct. I have worked with people like this... they do things (most of the time haphazardly), but have no grasp of the underlying mechanics.
Don't sit the JLPT - Tobberoth - 2009-08-14
montecristo73 Wrote:Didn't Khatz land a job in Japan without the JLPT? Just wondering.He did. So can you. Just go to any English teaching school and apply. No JLPT needed.
Like Jarvik7 has pointed out several times, we have no idea how much Japanese was actually needed for the job Khazu got. It's very probable he simply got it because of his fluency in English.
The fact is, if you look for work as a foreigner wanting to work in a Japanese environment with Japanese people, almost EVERY company demands AT LEAST JLPT2. Just search on google, you can find several sites which allow foreigners to search for jobs in Japan. 90% of them, at least, requires JLPT2 or higher, usually JLPT1. It's simply a requirement, if you don't have it, they have no time to waste on you, no matter how skilled you might ACTUALLY be.
I think the drivers license analogy is good. A company which wants a good driver it's going to demand a drivers license from all applicants. There might be people out there who can drive really well yet doesn't have a license, but why would the company waste time on those?