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Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - sweetneet - 2007-02-27
i agree 100% with chamcham--language textbooks, JLPT prep materials etc can only prepare you so much...plus, studying those usually aren't nearly as fun as actually speaking with Japanese people, watching Japanese movies, etc. So yeah, if you aren't in Japan I would definitely recommend finding a native speaker who you can practice with. Luckily at my university, there's a "Japanese Lunch Table" program where once a week students studying Japanese can meet with native Japanese people living in the area (typically they are either exchange students or wives of postdocs/graduate students). Thru this program it is easy to find a language exchange partner who you can meet regularly to practice more conversation. Anyway, I have participated in this program on & off, since I started learning Japanese (~3 years ago) and over the years have found that participating in these conversations was probably the most fun & rewarding aspect of learning the Japanese language. And indeed, it seems like a better gauge of how fluent you are in Japanese is how well you can converse with native Japanese speakers. I agree that passing JLPT Level 1 doesn't mean you are fluent, as it doesn't test speaking skills at all. For me, I just am aiming for passing the JLPT as another motivation to keep me studying vocabulary & grammar.
Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - Serge - 2007-02-28
Chamcham, Sweetneet: all very valid points throughout. The title of the thread, however, is 'Studying Vocabulary', not 'Achieving Fluency in Spoken Language'.
Now, Heisig is all about breaking out language learning into a series of tasks with manageable goals. In the spirit of his method, we have dealt with all kanji in one go, why can't we deal with all words?
It's important to be very clear about one's goals and the goal here is not so much JLPT. JLPT just provides a convenient framework and a listing of grammar and words through which one can work its way in the absence (as is my case) of a teacher or any formal training.
The goal for this particular exercise is not even speaking fluency - I agree that this is a completely separate task involving a separate set of skills, as is writing. In fact, I have managed to create an environment for myself where I get to practice speaking almost every day, this is great for acquiring fluency with twisting one's thoughts into the Japanese syntax but I don't expect it to do wonders for my vocabulary - with a little imagination and an occasional new noun or verb one can be pretty fluent in expressing opinions on daily matters with JLPT3 vocabulary only.
The goal is to increase reading ability and the ability to understand the language of the official media (not the talkshows - nothing is easier to pick up than slang when you need it).
Hence I'm doing reviews of the words and experimenting with ways to increase their automatic recognition in print - I may post more on this later if I believe I've found a good way. For recognition in the spoken language, there is the NHK news.
I am actually thinking about writing short nonsense prose fragments with the reviewed words, just as another way to exercise.
That's all, really... A different set of goals would require a different approach, you're absolutely right!
Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - chamcham - 2007-02-28
Studying vocabulary involves listening, reading, writing, and speaking.
So I didn't just mean spoken language in my other post.
In addition, even if a medium is littered with slang, the vocab words themselves
can still be fine. A lot of the slang you see can involve loan words or changes in grammar patterns, but the vocab remains the same. More important than "slang or no slang" is how relevant the vocab words are to what you're interested in. For example, even if a business manga were littered in slang, it would still contains a lot of vocabulary (especially kanji compounds) used in the business world.
Also, a word of warning. The type of Japanese in news and business is often very different from what you'll hear anywhere else. It might be good for vocab words, but for grammar, I would be careful. There's a lot of grammar that is used in the news, which has no practical usage outside of news broadcasts and you would sound very strange if you spoke to a Japanese person in that manner(remember that movie where the asian guy only learned his English from sports commentators? :-).
Lastly, I just want to reiterate the speaking reinforces vocabulary, whether written or spoken. New words from readings can come up in conversation. New words from conversation can come up in readings. And if you're not getting many new words out of your conversations, try varying your subjects and surprise them from time-to-time to see if you get a different reaction. Adding some variety and unpredictability might help you to get new words out of people......LOL......
Anyway, good luck with your studies.
Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - leosmith - 2007-02-28
50 words a day?
(see post 2)
300 words a day?
(see post 4)
Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - Ramchip - 2007-03-01
I have bad memories of wordlists from spanish courses, but I think with the proper method of studying like what was suggested in these posts it sounds interesting to give it another try. Thanks a lot for sharing the links!
Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - Serge - 2007-03-01
Very inspirational links, thank you, leosmith! However, the situation with European languages is slightly different, in my opinion. First of all, most of us already know or can guess huge chunks of vocabulary because of the shared greco-germanic-latin roots. Secondly, and most importantly, European languages have rich phonetics - the number of sound permutations that produce a word is practically unlimited, hence the vocabulary is more diverse and easier to remember.
Now, take Japanese with its rigid syllabaries. How many words in your dictionary are a permutation of [kan], [kei] and [ken]? Exactly... Or take Chinese with its endless stream of xi, chi, zi, ji, zhi and ci... Besides, one cannot rely on the instant recognition from the script (unless one has mastered Heisig, of course).
Chamcham: you're preaching to the converted...
I do watch movies, occasional bits of TV shows, read books that interest me (predominantly, novels and history essays) and challenge my conversation partners with an occasional discourse on topics... let's say, off the beaten path. With 8-9 European languages under my belt (never bothered to count them properly but would that make me a 'nanoglot' on the neighbouring forum?) and a diploma in linguistics from my previous life, I won't be the one to underestimate the power of the integrated approach. Similarly, all those course papers written and digested on slang and peculiarities of grammar in newspaper styles have not yet fully faded from my memory... And for this exercise, there is a very specific goal and I am finding my way towards it with all the limited means that I have. Dixi.
Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - leosmith - 2007-03-02
Serge Wrote:the situation with European languages is slightly different, in my opinion.Completely agree. But what did you think of the first link?
Tokoro de, this comes from a polyglot who speaks about 60 languages. He is what I think of as a passive learner. He is very much against learning vocabulary from lists, or anything even slightly out of context (10,000 sentence guy eat your heart out!).
I'm pretty much the exact opposite, not being able to learn things in context. But I may try to learn some stuff using his exact method, just to make sure. Can't hurt.
Here are some posts regarding learning to read without vocabulary lists, flashcards, drilling, etc. I apologize for this being a little off-topic, but it is another vocabulary learning method, and in order to capture it fully I had to include the broader reading methodology.
If you read the first 2 pages of
this thread
he explains why he doesn't use dictionaries at an early stage, why he uses his method, and gives some description of it.
If you read
this whole thread
he describes how he uses bilingual texts and shadowing.
The first page of
this thread
is a vocabulary classic.
edit: changed a bunch of ? to '. What's up with that?
Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - ファブリス - 2007-03-02
leosmith Wrote:He is very much against learning vocabulary from lists, or anything even slightly out of context (10,000 sentence guy eat your heart out!).The sentence approach is the same principle of learning the words in context, you try to understand what the sentence mean, and you're not supposed to write a literal translation of each sentence either. So I don't understand your "10,000 sentence guy" remark, why would he eat his heart out?
I've little experience with it so far but after just 10 sentences I found I could very easily remember the vocab, the readings and even how to write the kanji compounds from memory. It just makes sense.
The bilingual text approach is another more direct and practical way to do it, where the context is maintained over many sentences. But with the sentence + flashcard approach there is still a context within each sentence.
In other words my reasoning is that whether you learn sentences or use bilingual texts both are a long shot from learning vocab lists completely out of context.
Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - leosmith - 2007-03-02
ファブリス Wrote:I don't understand your "10,000 sentence guy" remark, why would he eat his heart out?Because he makes a big deal about being in context, and puts down other learning methods for not being in context, but he's clearly not as "in context" as the above method. (eat you heart out = you should be envious; I'm sure Fab knows this, but there maybe some who don't).
If you want to use a method that's more in context than lists, but you're willing to do flashcards at the sentence level, check out the
10,000 sentence method
Regardless of my criticism, it's certainly one of the most interesting blogs I've read. I've been doing sentence flashcards forever, but I'll have to try his exact method at some point.
Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - chamcham - 2007-03-02
that 10,000 sentence method link is very interesting.
A combination of this and Heisig would seem ideal for Japanese
learning.
Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - jonnay - 2007-03-02
A 10,000 sentences website would be awesome.
It could be like RtK, but people could post their sentences (possibly tag them based on subject?) so that others could use them. The only hard part is ensuring that the sentences posted were grammatically correct.
Easier said then done. But I bet some RoR or Drupal fiend could pump out a simple little site fairly easily.
Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - ファブリス - 2007-03-03
jonnay Wrote:It could be like RtK, but people could post their sentences (possibly tag them based on subject?) so that others could use them. The only hard part is ensuring that the sentences posted were grammatically correct.I've been thinking about that for a while...
There's a LOT more things possible than what is allowed by using generic flashcard programs like Mnemosyne... but I get ahead of myself. ^_^
I suspect most sentences would come from dictionaries or textbooks, so I thought one solution is to give credit to the source (i.e. "Kodansha dictionary", "JFE", "ALC online dictionary", etc. This *may* cover some of the copyright issues, while at the same time confirming that the sentence is from quality learning material.
Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - chamcham - 2007-03-03
wtf? I didn't write that.........LOL...........
Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - jonnay - 2007-03-03
Hmm.. The copyright issue is an interesting one. Depending on jurisdiction, fair use MAY cover it. But then, maybe it wouldn't. Copying sentences from a set of sentence flashcards (if they even existed) wouldn't be ethical at all. But from other sources? I personally see no problems, it certainly is an ethical (and quite probably legal) gray area.
Of course in this hypothetical sentence dream app, one could choose J->E and J->J sentences.
If it was "open-source", the hackers among us could snarf the code from a repository somewhere, and make patches, suggestions, etc. ('cource, the DB connection script would be kept off of the repository.
Just more ideas. Mmmmm. brain crack.
Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - Ramchip - 2007-03-04
Kanji cafe already does something similar. You can get random sentences by JLPT levels, for example. I don't know if it's exactly what you were looking for, but give it a try
Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - suffah - 2007-03-05
Ramchip Wrote:Kanji cafe already does something similar. You can get random sentences by JLPT levels, for example. I don't know if it's exactly what you were looking for, but give it a tryThat site confuses me big time. I can't figure out how to use it properly. And here I thought SM was harsh in regards to usability, lol.
Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - JimmySeal - 2007-03-05
About 9 months ago, I switched from looking up and writing down every unknown word in a book, to attempting to read books without looking up any words at all. To my great surprise, it was a lot easier to understand than I thought, and much less strain on the brain than looking up all the words. I arrived in Japan about 20 months ago, and I haven't studied a word list since I got here, but I think my vocabulary has probably quadrupled in that time.
I think that for most people it is necessary to go through a stage of studying vocab lists (I never knew about programs like mnemosyne, but I imagine that they make the process much easier). I also think it's necessary to do some reading with a dictionary in hand. These two things help to overcome what's known as the "learner's paradox." However, I also think it is in one's best interest to break free of those methods as early as possible and begin learning words from guessing their meaning from context. (nb. I still write down kanji compounds I can't pronounce and look up their pronunciation when I accumulate a bunch, because that's much harder to guess at.)
This is a really neat page on learning vocabulary. It's what changed my perspective on learning and inspired me to start reading sans dictionary:
http://www.english-learning.co.uk/voc.html#v1
Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - ericshun - 2007-03-05
That's a really cool website. A lot of stuff on there. But I have to comment on this...
"The practical command of foreign languages in Japan is far below the average for highly literate communities, such as Japan is, and this is especially remarkable when one considers the attention paid to them in Japanese education. This is not due simply to the fact that the Japanese language is very different from English, the first foreign language for students in Japan. Speakers of equally different languages can speak English very well."
There is no "equally different" language. From what they say, Japanese is in its own class. Maybe Korean, but Korean and Japanese speakers are both awful. It's not just the words.
Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - chamcham - 2007-03-05
I know what you mean.
In a way, that's what I actually did with Japanese TV dramas.
It wasn't until I stopped looking up every word that I began
to get comfortable watching dramas without subs.
After a while, your listening skills get to the point where
it's no problem keeping up with the speed that native people
talk. Afterwards, you'll soon notice some words are more
frequent than others(since you can now recognize the words
people are saying).
It's really satisfying, since I often pick up really interesting
words and phrases that you'd NEVER see in any textbook.
It makes you sound really native and some native speakers
are shocked when they hear some of the vocabulary that I know.
For manga at least, RTK1 is enough to read most stuff without
needing a dictionary. Once in a while though, you come across
compounds that don't make sense literally.
With the exception of a good grammar book(like the Kanzen Master and Unicom
grammar books), I've given up on the contrived material you get from instructional
textbooks.
I kind of work backwards now. I link grammar from drama back to my grammar books and not the other way around. So instead of coming up with example sentences for grammar patterns, I try to think of similar situations from drama and attempt to reenact what the character would say(or at least my best guess of what they'd say). Even if the dialogue in drama can be heavy on slang sometimes, it's not so hard to changing the expressions to be more polite.
To be honest, if you've finished RTK1, do yourself a favor and don't use any classroom textbooks to practice reading or speaking. You're now at the point where you can enjoy material that is "for Japanese people by Japanese people". You'll actually start sounding like a Japanese person after a while.
Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - synewave - 2007-03-08
JimmySeal Wrote:This is a really neat page on learning vocabulary. It's what changed my perspective on learning and inspired me to start reading sans dictionary:Got to give a nod to JimmySeal for that link. At first look it seemed a bit long but it is a good read. This non-dictionary reading thing seems more like fun than studying. Especially when you're reading manga!
http://www.english-learning.co.uk/voc.html#v1
Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - chamcham - 2007-03-09
The summary at the end is so true.
In fact, I'll paste it here:
(a) Never spend money and time listening to teachers talking about words. Instead, spend that time reading and listening and finding out directly what words mean and how they are used.
(b) Never waste money on books about vocabulary. Instead, again, read and listen and find out directly what words mean and how they are used.
© Never make lists of one-word equivalents. (If you need such a list for the most basic words, try to find one that has been made by a linguist who has studied the problem carefully.)
(d) Never translate into your own language "to be sure you really understand". If you don't already understand you cannot translate.
(e)Never think that a word means the same as another word.
(f)Never believe that a definition tells you what a word really means.
(g)Never use a dictionary more than you absolutely have to ? and "absolutely having to" is much less often than you think.
Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - dingomick - 2007-03-09
I just read that page today. Thanks for the link!
Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - synewave - 2007-03-13
leosmith started an interesting thread over on the how to forum. I'm sure a lot of you will have seen it already, but for those that haven't, check it out. It's a compendium of ways to go about learning vocab. Pretty interesting.
Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - brose - 2007-03-13
Link to Vocabulary Learning 2
http://static.unilang.org/resources/vocab/vocdb.html
Studying Vocabulary: Tactics? - ファブリス - 2007-03-13
So anybody has a good experience with sentence learning, with vocab in context?
Because I am really excited about building something like that that takes care of vocab, sentences, kanji readings all in one swoop. I've already started the design process actually. But it would be flexible enough that you could enter a dummy/empty sentence or just use it as a "tag", and add a bunch of related vocabulary.