Pre-mined sentences in word order for AJATT folks (and others)

Pre-mined sentences in word order for AJATT folks (and others) - Printable Version

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Pre-mined sentences in word order for AJATT folks (and others) - to_nihon - 2009-08-02

I'm using the Kanji Odyssey 2001 sentences, but they're not written out in literal word order, so it's hard to understand sometimes which word goes with what.

By 'literal word order' I mean what Khatzumoto does:

Quote:QUESTION (FRONT):

これは例文です。

ANSWER (BACK):

これ　は（わ）　れい・ぶん　です。

This [as for] example-sentence is. (PL3)

*This is an example sentence.

Has anyone created a large spreadsheet/Anki deck/napkin scribble with sentences in word order like this? Could be KO2001, Tanuki Corpus, whatever.

I know it's better to do it yourself, but I don't have a lot of time to sit in front of a computer translating everything with rikaichan and dictionaries.

I prefer to take a good-sized sentence collection with me on the go, because I'm using ndsrs with my Nintendo DS. I can't edit cards on the fly.

Since I'm using ndsrs, if anyone has the pre-made .srs files, that would be a nice bonus. ^-^

Pre-mined sentences in word order for AJATT folks (and others) - Ryuujin27 - 2009-08-02

I wouldn't worry too much about this problem. It will fix itself in time. Now, if I see an English translation of a Japanese sentences, no matter how many words I don't know, I can pretty much pair them up perfectly.

But, if you would like to do this to start, I recommend getting the Mangajin books. All of their sentences have this format.

Pre-mined sentences in word order for AJATT folks (and others) - Tobberoth - 2009-08-02

I think most of the benefit is lost if you don't do that translation yourself. Like Ryuujin said though, it's not a big problem, it's something you learn automatically.

Pre-mined sentences in word order for AJATT folks (and others) - oregum - 2009-08-02

I confer, the 'key' is making your own sentences. You are also correct, it does take a lot of time. A lot of freakin' time.

Pre-mined sentences in word order for AJATT folks (and others) - wccrawford - 2009-08-03

Tobberoth Wrote:I think most of the benefit is lost if you don't do that translation yourself. Like Ryuujin said though, it's not a big problem, it's something you learn automatically.

For advanced learners, I agree. For beginners, I think it would be helpful. Especially if they don't know all the words in the sentence.

Unfortunately, people that are past that stage usually don't have enough spare time to sit down and write it out for those that aren't.

You'll be better off finding a service that provides the definition of each word, like using a website with Rikaichan.

Pre-mined sentences in word order for AJATT folks (and others) - mafried - 2009-08-03

Yeah, for a beginner that would be helpful. But seriously not necessary. I wouldn't avoid the use of a sentence pack just because it doesn't have it.

Pre-mined sentences in word order for AJATT folks (and others) - oregum - 2009-08-03

I would advise against too many (or any) pre-mined sentences. To me it's like using romanji.

Don't get me wrong, anything (everything) is beneficial for beginners.

example:
bad romanji: konitiwa - bad
good romanji: konnichiha - better
kana: こんにちは - even better
kanji: 今日は - best

It's like a crutch. You'd be doing yourself a disservice.

Pre-mined sentences in word order for AJATT folks (and others) - vosmiura - 2009-08-03

wccrawford Wrote:For advanced learners, I agree. For beginners, I think it would be helpful. Especially if they don't know all the words in the sentence.

Advanced learners don't need word by word literal translations - usually just definitions for any new words.

I think beginners need to do it so that they can learn. I think it's good to push your level a little - that's how you can advance.

Pre-mined sentences in word order for AJATT folks (and others) - Mcjon01 - 2009-08-03

oregum Wrote:I would advise against too many (or any) pre-mined sentences. To me it's like using romanji.

Don't get me wrong, anything (everything) is beneficial for beginners.

example:
bad romanji: konitiwa - bad
good romanji: konnichiha - better
kana: こんにちは - even better
kanji: 今日は - best

It's like a crutch. You'd be doing yourself a disservice.

Using 今日は for こんにちは seems highly inappropriate. I mean, technically you could read it that way, but I can't imagine anybody would ever read it as anything other than きょうは.

Pre-mined sentences in word order for AJATT folks (and others) - oregum - 2009-08-03

I know it was a bad example, but I needed something really simple to illustrate my point. Besides it should be used in the context of a sentence, so there shouldn't be confusion about whether its こんにちは　ｏｒ　きょうは。

Pre-mined sentences in word order for AJATT folks (and others) - bandwidthjunkie - 2009-08-03

I can't see what the problem is with pre-made sentences if you completely understand why the translation is what it is (that may be with the help of a dictionary); so you know what all the words mean and you understand the grammar. I've just started using premade sentences from smartfm and they do save a lot of time. However, I think this needs to be balanced by doing your own translations as translation makes you think about the grammar. If I have a translated sentence and I'm not sure that I could have translated it myself (with the help of a dictionary) then I'll just ditch it as it is obviously too hard for me. I don't really buy the Zen approach and I don't think that rote learning would do me much good because English and Japanese are so far removed from each other; for closer languages like French and English it might work better.

(How about こんにちわ it's soo cute!)

Pre-mined sentences in word order for AJATT folks (and others) - phauna - 2009-08-03

Over-kanjifying is definitely a bad thing to do. I don't think I've ever read konnichiwa in kanji, it's usually kana only.

If you want some literal word order sentences, Assimil Japanese With Ease course uses it. Of course you'd have to type it all in yourself but the hard work is already done. Assimil also has good audio and dialogues.

Pre-mined sentences in word order for AJATT folks (and others) - cangy - 2009-08-03

wccrawford Wrote:You'll be better off finding a service that provides the definition of each word, like using a website with Rikaichan.

http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?9T

been meaning to make a script to feed a deck through that and import the results. it should be an easy one, but my queue looks like this now, so you might be waiting a little while:

* cleanup and release old-style readings to furigana converter
* add furigana to ankitty
* add kanji data lookup to ankitty
* script to reorder decks by order of kanji used
* script to find optimal kanji sorting order for a deck
* script to feed deck through above url

Pre-mined sentences in word order for AJATT folks (and others) - cangy - 2009-08-03

ok, here's a unix shell script. the only argument is the expression field number. output has definition field appended. import back into your deck with the overwrite fields plugin

Code:

#!/bin/sh

# ./lookup-sentences 1 < ./deck-exported.txt > ./deck-toimport.txt

# $Revision: 1.2 $ $Date: 2009/08/04 01:51:40 $

while read line

do

  sentence=`echo "$line" | awk -F'\t' '{print $'"$1"'}'`

  echo -ne "$line\t"

  wget -O - "http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?9MIH$sentence" | \

    grep '<li> ' | \

    sed 's|.*<li> ||' | \

    sed 's|<\/li>$|<br>|' | \

    tr -d '\n' | \

    tr '\t' ' ' | \

    recode EUCJP..u8

  echo

done

Pre-mined sentences in word order for AJATT folks (and others) - to_nihon - 2009-08-03

OK, this kind of got off the point. I know that this might not be 'the best way', but it's the way I prefer it. Again, does anyone have pre-mined sentence collections in word order like this? I don't have access to Mangajin.

Pre-mined sentences in word order for AJATT folks (and others) - eroichigo - 2009-08-03

I'm actually a fan of using pre-mined sentences as long as they are from native sources. Especially at the beginning stages where you have a very limited vocabulary. It's a quick way to build your vocab and save yourself some time. I've done both pre-mined and self-mined sentences and haven't really noticed any big difference in benefit. I just enjoy devouring new words.

Pre-mined sentences in word order for AJATT folks (and others) - to_nihon - 2009-08-04

eroichigo Wrote:I'm actually a fan of using pre-mined sentences as long as they are from native sources. Especially at the beginning stages where you have a very limited vocabulary. It's a quick way to build your vocab and save yourself some time. I've done both pre-mined and self-mined sentences and haven't really noticed any big difference in benefit. I just enjoy devouring new words.

I actually really enjoy the 'boring' sentences from KO2001. I find all the new words exciting to me. Sentences are definitely helping my comprehension; I am picking up new things all the time.

Pre-mined sentences in word order for AJATT folks (and others) - sparky14 - 2013-12-10

Japanese doesn't work like English all the time, so you shouldn't try to find sentences that have exactly the same word order when translated to English... Khatz talks about this and says that's a problem with many textbooks, they use too many sentences English like sentences when most Japanese doesn't follow English word order at all. Also, if you're a beginner you shouldn't be translating sentences, you should find sentences that already have an English translation.

Edit: Disregard most of my post, I thought you were talking about the Japanese sentence in literal word order, not the translation.

Pre-mined sentences in word order for AJATT folks (and others) - qwertyytrewq - 2013-12-10

sparky14 Wrote:Edit: Disregard most of my post, I thought you were talking about the Japanese sentence in literal word order, not the translation.

Actually you can add 2 more reasons:

1) OP's post was posted on 2009 so I'm sure he already found a solution to his problem by now. He's probably fluent or gave up learning Japanese.
2) OP hasn't logged in since 2009 so even if your advice was relevant, he can't read it, unless he's still lurking.