Systematically practicing output

Systematically practicing output - Printable Version

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Systematically practicing output - kudokupo - 2012-07-25

I've always had a problem when practicing output, for instance on lang-8. I can understand a ton of grammar, but almost none of it is active. I know that's a common problem and the solution is to just practice more, but I really dislike practicing by randomly attempting to write something when I'm not confident using any sentence structure other than the absolute basic ones.

So I was wondering if there was a better way to move all of these sentence structures from passive to active, so it's possible to practice without struggling, constantly referencing grammar guides thinking "ok...how could I possibly say this in Japanese." Also I really don't like starting with English and translating because Japanese people just say things differently, and if I don't know how it's conveyed in Japanese it's frustrating. Whenever I make attempts at that it's almost certainly incorrect. So what I want is a systematic way to master grammar patterns, so I can use them with confidence. Does anybody know how I could do that?

Systematically practicing output - chillimuffin - 2012-07-25

Read A LOT and the structures will eventually stick and come to your mind when you need them? That's how I learnt a lot of more complicated English grammatical structures when I was in high school: not doing any active studying but reading tons of literature in English. And it's not just about grammar, it works for collocations just as well. Later on, when I was having conversations with my English friend, these chunks of language just popped up in my head - when I wanted to say something, they just "felt right", and they were very often correct.

Systematically practicing output - IceCream - 2012-07-25

i was going to recommend the JSL audio excersises linked from here: http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/foreign-languages-and-literatures/21f-501-japanese-i-fall-2009/study-materials-1/
but unfortunately it doesn't seem open to the public anymore.

Has anyone saved these anywhere??

Systematically practicing output - kudokupo - 2012-07-25

Yeah I realize with enough input, output will come, but it often seems like I'll have to wait until I'm able to read and understand almost anything, read a ton of it, and then finally it'll move to output. When there's still several unknown words everywhere, reading is too slow to get enough input for that natural output to come. Isn't there a way to get reasonably good at output without waiting so long? Also that still requires random output practice, which I want to do, but after getting some sort of foundation in output so it's not so discouraging.

Systematically practicing output - nadiatims - 2012-07-25

i really don't get this drive some people have to practice output...

If you actually have people to speak japanese with, then just speak/email japanese to them. That's your practice. If you don't then why the need to practice it?

Speaking japanese is a useless skill if you don't actually have people to speak to. Also it's a bit naive to expect your speaking to be even semi-fluent if your listening isn't yet up to speed. Turn on the TV or watch a movie or something. Can you understand pretty much everything easily? No? then work on that. I don't believe people who say they have near total listening comprehension but can't speak at all.

Systematically practicing output - kodorakun - 2012-07-25

Apart from the various suggestions in this thread, which I mostly agree with entirely, I'd say one other activity you could do is be very -attentive- to said movies, literature, manga, etc and write down all the patterns or sentences you like, find interesting, feel you have a solid comprehension of and would like to be able to say. Then put those sentences into an MCD deck, use the MCD plugin and cloze every part of the sentence. It seems like a lot of work but I've realized that with testing this I can memorize entire phrases without thinking memorization is my end goal. Mentioning MCD is guaranteed to be controversial, and I'm not part of the Cult of MCD, so take this with a grain of salt. It's just a suggestion you could play with. I just know in contrast the sentences in my passive reading deck, which I know, love and would like to say never "stick" in my mind as a whole, but the MCD cards can be conjured up in their entirety at random. : Confused

hrug::

Systematically practicing output - IceCream - 2012-07-25

* That JSL speaking is really helpful, so it might be worthwhile trying to get hold of a copy.
* This site: http://www.coelang.tufs.ac.jp/modules/ja/index.html has some situations to practise with.
* Shadowing is helpful, try the White Rabbit Press books, or make your own shadowing cards.
* Doing grammar excersises with sentence patterns will probably help, and it's worth doing them as you're learning new structures because it seems way too boring later. Or, how about just taking sentence patterns you see in real life and practise outputting different ideas with them? (Change different words and stuff)
* Maybe try "living Japanese" after that?

Honestly, i really don't get this drive people have to come into threads like this and suggest that doing nothing will be just fine, despite the fact that they've been told that their assumptions are simply wrong, multiple times, by multiple people. Passive skill in listening is not linked in any kind of strict way with output ability. Understanding is a prerequisite for output ability, but that doesn't mean that if you can't output, you clearly can't understand. It's not a biconditional. You should read some neuroscience stuff on this, so you stop spreading bad information really.

Speaking Japanese obviously isn't a useless skill to have if you want to actually have a conversation at some point. Drilling grammar structures can help because you have a whole bunch of stuff that you've put into active knowledge that you can fall back on when the time comes rather than having a ton of long embarassing silences while you try to formulate your thoughts into Japanese sentence structures before the other person gives up and switches to English.

If you don't have anything helpful to suggest, why bother?

Systematically practicing output - howtwosavealif3 - 2012-07-25

Here's how I do McDs

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?pid=163397#pid163397

check out other posts. . i think the last or second to last post has somebody posting an mcd card format that youre looking for

Though I think it's best to do mcd if you're used to japanese like you developed some sort of intuition with Japanese

Systematically practicing output - Jaxon - 2012-07-25

Fortunately I had saved some of the JSL audio, but only the first 12 lessons.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/a53chp5cgahmydc/JSL_Audio_Lessons_01-04.7z
http://www.mediafire.com/file/favbv5au5e6kmdw/JSL_Audio_Lessons_05-08.7z
http://www.mediafire.com/file/ezxmr7bc4h4nd8f/JSL_Audio_Lessons_09-12.7z

As for the rest, drills for some of the lessons in Part 2 and drills for all of the lessons in Part 3 can be downloaded from http://nihongo.byu.edu/jsl/jslall.htm . Maybe someone with access to the Ohio State language lab site can make the missing files available.

Systematically practicing output - kitakitsune - 2012-07-25

All of the JSL audio is here

http://lrc.cornell.edu/medialib/ja/jsl

Systematically practicing output - nadiatims - 2012-07-25

IceCream Wrote:Honestly, i really don't get this drive people have to come into threads like this and suggest that doing nothing will be just fine, despite the fact that they've been told that their assumptions are simply wrong, multiple times, by multiple people.

Yes, you're right. Some people have told me I'm wrong. Therefore they must be right and I ought to just not say anything.

Icecream Wrote:If you don't have anything helpful to suggest, why bother?

Clearly, I did have something helpful to suggest. I suggested the spend their time on what actually works and actually provides practical use.

You know, I don't think I have even once told someone on this forum that they shouldn't post, yet I have been told multiple times (usually by the same handful of posters).

Systematically practicing output - gaiaslastlaugh - 2012-07-25

nadiatims Wrote:
Icecream Wrote:If you don't have anything helpful to suggest, why bother?
Clearly, I did have something helpful to suggest. I suggested the spend their time on what actually works and actually provides practical use.

I found it very useful, so thanks. Smile

I also feel like it's too early for me to engage in massive output. I occasionally blog at lang-8 (and get lots of helpful corrections), and have a few new 言語交換 partners who just moved to the Seattle area from Japan with whom I correspond in dueling English and Japanese via FB. I can manage to stumble out a few sentences at a Japanese language meetup, but that's about it so far. I know the grammar and a fair amount of vocab, but not intuitively enough to speak with any confidence. Japanese sentences just don't "stick" in my head yet the way that English sentences do.

And yes, my audio comprehension is low, so that's what I'm focusing on now. I know that it improves with practice, as I can now mostly decipher the email subscription information Dig gives at the beginning of every podcast (having listened to the goddamn thing every day for about a month now Smile

. I'm using VoiceBlog Nippon, 昔話, and a few podcasts like HOTCAST and そこあに for n+1 input, as well as listening to Dig and watching anime w/o 英語字幕. I figure if I still can't speak with more confidence by year's end, I'll have greatly improved my aural comprehension. I certainly won't have lost anything.

Systematically practicing output - SammyB - 2012-07-25

kitakitsune Wrote:All of the JSL audio is here

http://lrc.cornell.edu/medialib/ja/jsl

password?

Systematically practicing output - kainzero - 2012-07-25

i really like speaking with people just in general as a way to practice output. if you're on the lookout for implicit corrections it helps greatly.
for example...

-"i went to supermarket yesterday"
-"you went to THE supermarket yesterday? what did you buy?"

i also feel that conversation is more active and is a better test of your comprehension because you need to respond to what they're saying. i can roughly understand dramas, variety shows, and radio shows because if i'm completely lost in one part, the show still goes on and sometimes i can figure out what they were trying to say through context and retrofitting meanings on to sentences. you can't do that in conversation all the time because you're the one that needs to respond and it will halt if you don't understand.

i'm not a fan of input leading to output. doesn't work for me. what has worked for me was constantly engaging in japanese conversation every day. unfortunately, that only worked when i was vacationing in Japan, and not using it causes it to slip, so i'm back to my crappy old self again. the first time i met this one language paretner i felt like i couldn't speak very well at all, but the next time i saw her a week later i felt much more comfortable using and emoting in the language just by being there and having the practice and necessity to use the language.

nadiatims Wrote:Speaking japanese is a useless skill if you don't actually have people to speak to.

it really depends on your goals, if you WANT to speak to someone and develop it then you need to work on it, plain and simple.

with that said, i hardly practice my speaking because i don't feel a need to. but then i go to japan for vacation and get sad when i have trouble speaking basic things and then follow written directions perfectly. other people ask me questions like "how long have you been studying?" can't answer because my hearing is not attuned. figure out how to bluetooth transfer photos on a japanese phone to my phone? no problem! lol.

(oh crap i mentioned being in japan, too much bragging)

Systematically practicing output - Taishi - 2012-07-25

nadiatims Wrote:i really don't get this drive some people have to practice output...

Then I will do my best to try explain this to you (from my point of view).

nadiatims Wrote:If you actually have people to speak japanese with, then just speak/email japanese to them. That's your practice. If you don't then why the need to practice it?

Just because I currently don't live in Japan or have any Japanese friends does not mean I don't want to live/work there in the future and just because I don't have any Japanese friends doesn't mean that I don't want to make any. Is it wrong to want to prepare yourself?

nadiatims Wrote:I don't believe people who say they have near total listening comprehension but can't speak at all.

I don't believe this is true either, but that doesn't mean there isn't any truth to it. If you don't take the sentence literally it can be interpreted as not being able to construct natural output (or having a very small active vocabulary) even with a very high passive understanding of the language.

I have studied Japanese for a few years, and while I won't say I understand everything perfectly, I can understand what is being said in most situations. My output in these 3 or so years are pretty much limited to 2 very short lang8 articles. When I wrote them (which was fairly recently) I found that I had to question things I thought I knew. I realized that I needed a deeper understanding of the language for output than for input (in other words, theoretically output can make understanding easier as well). This might only be for writing though.

However for speaking, it's all about getting used to talking in the language. Just because you know exactly how something should sound doesn't mean you can produce that sound on your first try.

If your only worry is being understood then sure you don't need to practice output, but if you don't want to sound like a small child (sub-standard pronounciation, simple/strange sentence constructions) for months then practicing might be a good idea.

And of course, if you have no plans whatsoever to ever speak/write Japanese then skipping it is probably a good idea, but I think most people learn a language because they wish to use it, not just look at it.

Systematically practicing output - Tzadeck - 2012-07-25

SammyB Wrote:
kitakitsune Wrote:All of the JSL audio is here

http://lrc.cornell.edu/medialib/ja/jsl
password?

Strangely, you don't need a password for book 3? Haha.

Systematically practicing output - Jaxon - 2012-07-25

kitakitsune Wrote:All of the JSL audio is here

http://lrc.cornell.edu/medialib/ja/jsl

Thanks! The login information is doozo/doozo for anyone else who may want to listen.

Systematically practicing output - partner55083777 - 2012-07-25

kainzero Wrote:i really like speaking with people just in general as a way to practice output. if you're on the lookout for implicit corrections it helps greatly.
for example...

-"i went to supermarket yesterday"
-"you went to THE supermarket yesterday? what did you buy?"

I second doing things like this.

There is also another trick you can use for writing. If you know a couple words you want to use, but are not sure how to arrange them in a sentence, you can use google to figure out how a native would say them.

For instance, if you wanted to say, "I'm going to the supermarket tomorrow", you'd hopefully know you needed to use the words "明日", "スーパー", and "行く". You could google for these words and see what comes up:

https://www.google.co.jp/#hl=ja&safe=images&sclient=psy-ab&q=明日　スーパー　行く&oq=明日　スーパー　行く

https://www.google.co.jp/#hl=ja&gs_nf=1&pq=%E6%98%8E%E6%97%A5%E3%80%80%E3%82%B9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%91%E3%83%BC%E3%80%80%E8%A1%8C&cp=8&gs_id=1m1&xhr=t&q=%22%E6%98%8E%E6%97%A5%E3%82%B9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%91%E3%83%BC*%E8%A1%8C%22&pf=p&safe=images&sclient=psy-ab&oq=%22%E6%98%8E%E6%97%A5%E3%82%B9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%91%E3%83%BC*%E8%A1%8C%22&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=31e635901cdc1229&biw=1408&bih=686

There are of course some drawbacks to this method, especially when your Japanese isn't too good. However, when you start to get better at Japanese, this method starts to be more and more helpful.

Systematically practicing output - Splatted - 2012-07-26

@Partner55083777: That's a really good idea! Thanks for the tip ^^

kudokupo Wrote:it often seems like I'll have to wait until I'm able to read and understand almost anything, read a ton of it, and then finally it'll move to output.

This isn't true. I started reading large amounts when I still needed to look up almost every word, and since then it's been almost my sole study method, but now I've read several books and it's done wonders for all aspects of my Japanese. You can start reading extensively as soon as you're willing to suck it up and make the effort. It's quite reasonable to want to wait until you're Japanese is good enough to make it enjoyable, but don't feel you have to wait for that if you have the motivation to try now, because reading is a means as much as it is an end.

P.s. Waiting till you understand almost anything is probably waiting too long (I can't see how you'll reach that point without lots of practice), but you could start with some graded readers and understand almost everything that's written in that book.

Systematically practicing output - nadiatims - 2012-07-26

Taishi Wrote:Just because I currently don't live in Japan or have any Japanese friends does not mean I don't want to live/work there in the future and just because I don't have any Japanese friends doesn't mean that I don't want to make any. Is it wrong to want to prepare yourself?

Not at all. But prepare yourself by building the requisite base of vocabulary and familiarity with patterns. When the time comes that you need to speak, you'll be able to 'wing it' with the words/patterns you are familiar with, and the more you're familiar with the better. And the more you 'wing it' in this manner the better you'll get at it.

Taishi Wrote:If your only worry is being understood then sure you don't need to practice output, but if you don't want to sound like a small child (sub-standard pronounciation, simple/strange sentence constructions) for months then practicing might be a good idea.

You don't get to skip that stage though. Everyone has sub-standard pronunciation, and simple/strange sentence constructions when they start, especially if you spend most of your time attempting to 'activate' what you know instead of acquiring the requisite base knowledge (familiarity with how words/phrases/patterns are used). As a basic example, imagine there are 2 words with similar (but ultimately different meaning). If you only know one of the words, that is invariably the one you'll end up using when you practice your output. You may get your point across but you'll end up using the one word where natives would usually use the other. When the times comes that you're in a communication situation, you'll be overusing the words you know, and you'll be unfamiliar with a lot of the words people are speaking back to you. I've used the analogy of two concentric circles before on this forum. Imagine the outer circle represents your overall language knowledge/familiarity (so called 'passive' ability) and the inner represents your abilities to express yourself in speech or writing (so called 'active' ability). for the inner circle to be accurate and natural, it necessarily has to be constrained within the outer. If you're reaching outside of that outer 'passive' circle when you speak, you're basically just guessing. You'll feel unsure of yourself, and speaking will seem hard. You'll ultimately fall back on the same overused words and phrases.

Systematically practicing output - IceCream - 2012-07-26

Thankyou so much for the links to the JSL audio!!! I'd been working through it online, so it's great to have it back Big Grin

@nadiatims: i'm sorry if i sounded too sharp about this yesterday... it just annoys me to read you say the same thing every time there's a thread about this.

nadiatims Wrote:
IceCream Wrote:Honestly, i really don't get this drive people have to come into threads like this and suggest that doing nothing will be just fine, despite the fact that they've been told that their assumptions are simply wrong, multiple times, by multiple people.
Yes, you're right. Some people have told me I'm wrong. Therefore they must be right and I ought to just not say anything.

In this case, yes, that's exactly how it is. Because look... it's not that you're "wrong". Some people really will be lucky enough to never have to do anything and Japanese will pour out of their mouths when they need it to. Everyone will experience this to some extent!!!

The point is that other people have told you a lot of times that just waiting and working on listening ability isn't working well for them, and their speaking ability is just getting left way behind their listening. But rather than adapt your theory to include people with various different natural skill levels at transfering things into active knowledge, you simply continue to doubt whether they exist.

Doing those kind of excersises obviously can help, with confidence, but also with the speed with which you can pull grammar structures and sentence patterns from your head when you need them. They aren't a waste of time for everyone...

What IS a waste of time, imo, is waiting however many years and still not being able to produce even basic Japanese conversation smoothly, because you've been told that it'll just happen at some point when you need it. It's not just a waste of time, but goddamn annoying listening to someone who continually suggests my problem is that i still don't understand basic conversation yet.

nadiatims Wrote:You know, I don't think I have even once told someone on this forum that they shouldn't post, yet I have been told multiple times (usually by the same handful of posters).

I'm not trying to say that you shouldn't post, only that you should read the responses of other people in the thread and reconsider your position rather than posting the same thing continually.
If it were just a difference of opinion, it wouldn't matter, we could disagree and argue it out. If you were just posting your own experience, i wouldn't have a problem. It's the constant discounting of other people's experience that your argument rests on for this subject that grates. Especially when it's probably precisely the subset of people who actually would be helped most by these kind of excersises who would bother to make a thread like this, only to be told that it's a waste of time to do anything...

Systematically practicing output - kodorakun - 2012-07-26

IceCream -- is JSL available online (text) via some resource? The reviews of the text are pretty scathing (on amazon), but I usually associated bad reviews of established texts to be more an indicator of that person's inabilities to cope with the reality that studying hard things requires effort (not to be too harsh about it...).

K

Systematically practicing output - Splatted - 2012-07-26

@IceCream: I think one of us is misunderstanding what Nadiatims is saying because my interpretation is quite different. I thought she meant (and I'm sure she'll clarify things soon enough):

1) Input/understanding is a necessary prerequisite to quality output. (Not that it automatically leads to it)

+

2) The higher your Japanese level (familiarity with sentence patterns, ability to differentiate between subtle differences in meaning etc), the quicker and easier it will be for you to learn to output well.

I think this has lead her to the conclusion that:

3) Unless you have a reason to output, it's much more efficient to wait until later to practice it, because you can spend that time improving other aspects of your Japanese and it will be much easier to improve your output later.

Personally, I agree with points 1 and 2, and to a certain the third one as well, but I do think "because I want to" is a good enough reason, and that practicing output can make you more aware of things you're not paying enough attention to in your input.

I also think it's worth pointing out that as far as I can tell (from creative writing forums, interviews with authors etc), the second most agreed upon piece of advice given for improving writing ability in your native language is to read a lot, so this isn't just a baseless individual opinion.

Edit: The most common piece of advice is to write a lot, but that's for people who are already very advanced in the language, so I don't think it contradicts any of the above points.

Systematically practicing output - Taishi - 2012-07-26

@Splatted: I pretty much agree with what you're saying I would just word it slightly differently. Like nadiatims said, putting most of your efforts "trying to 'activate' what you know" may or may not be the best idea, but I think forsaking it altogether hurts your progress. You don't have to focus on output, just pay attention to it, as a small part of your study plan. I think it's very important to get used to the language, and of course reading a lot is a very big part of that, but writing/speaking gives you another perspective to view the language from that might as well be gotten used to from the earlier stages.

I like to view it like, you can get a certain amount of knowledge from doing specific tasks, and the more time you're spending doing one task, the more 'saturated' you get. For example, say you read a book for 6 hours in a day. Obviously you're going to learn more from reading a book for 6 hours than trying to speak/write for 6 hours. But what about reading for 5 hours 30 minutes, and practicing output for 30 minutes? Does the extra 30 minutes of reading really outweigh the 30 minutes spent practicing?

Systematically practicing output - IceCream - 2012-07-26

@kodorakun: sorry, i haven't ever used the textbooks, i've just been working through the spoken drills. Yudantaiteki and some other members of the forum swear by them though. The reason i haven't tried to get hold of the textbook is that when i looked, it seemed to mainly be a transcription of the audio dialogues (it has pitch accent, which might be helpful). Perhaps the bad reviews are because of the roomaji? Here's the users guides though, if that's any help? http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/jslguide/

@splatted: i've seen nadiatims argument a number of times now, and it goes way further than that. 1 & 2 i have no problem with. 3 doesn't follow from 1 and 2.

"Turn on the TV or watch a movie or something. Can you understand pretty much everything easily? No? then work on that. I don't believe people who say they have near total listening comprehension but can't speak at all."

Essentially, if you can't output, either you can't understand, or you're a liar if you say you do. Ummm.....

"When the time comes that you need to speak, you'll be able to 'wing it' with the words/patterns you are familiar with, and the more you're familiar with the better."

This is a huge assumption, and one that simply hasn't happened for me. It's not enough to be familiar with words and patterns in a passive sense, because they simply dont come into my head when i need them. I just stand there looking gormless and the person i'm speaking to thinks i haven't understood their question, so they switch to english. People aren't going to be prepared to wait for 10 seconds every time while you parse the Japanese to output before the conversation can continue just because you haven't bothered to practise.

There's no good reason not to practise the Japanese that you already understand passively, unless you're the type of person for whom speech comes easily. It's only going to be a waste of time if you are one of them. If you're not, practising and thinking about it are likely to help a lot.

The two most common pieces of advice for new writers go hand in hand. You have to write a lot, and read a lot. (it really makes no difference that the piece of advice to write a lot is for advanced language users. Both pieces of advice are.) You have to read a lot to pick up elements of style and new vocabulary. You then have to put those into active knowledge by consciously applying these new ideas while writing.
It seems doubtful to me that most people could read a book written in a specific style, wait ten years, and then output that style effectively just from recall. What would be more effective would be to consciously try outputting in that style at the same time as reading it, or just after. (of course, there may be people who can do this, but the rest of us mere mortals will get better by actively practising.)

Of all the things i've done in Japanese, the thing that's had the most impact on outputting is *shock* outputting. Reading and listening ability meander along happily all by their selves, and pull my ability in other areas up here and there as they go along. But for me, it takes the conscious effort involved in taking grammar structures from things i've heard or read, playing with them and applying them, that allows me to quickly pull sayings and grammar structures into my head when i need them.