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Confused and unsure of what to do... - skeeter3 - 2009-07-23
Hello everyone! I am finishing up RTK at the end of this week(Yay ^_^), and I want to jump into the next thing to boost my Japanese along. I've been hit with information overload on this forum. It seems there are so many paths one can choose from. I have heard of AJATT, and think it is pretty neat, but knowing nill vocab/grammar I can't see how it would work. Has anyone else here gone AJATT without knowing any grammar or vocab first? Did you need to "prep" (so to speak) with vocab lists or grammar study before jumping in feet first? Any help in formulatting a study plan would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot!
Confused and unsure of what to do... - Amset - 2009-07-23
Someone should sticky a post like this because this question is pretty popular. Anyways, here's what I recommend/did:
1. Read a grammar guide. I personally liked Tae Kim's (http://www.guidetojapanese.org) (Maybe SRS the examples but maybe don't because I've heard they can be awkward)
2. Go through ~100-200 of smart.fm's core 2000 words. (SRS examples)
3. Read japanese! (SRS interesting/new sentences)
It's not too hard to read japanese after you know the grammar, there's just a lot of looking up stuff.
Confused and unsure of what to do... - nonpoint - 2009-07-23
Amset Wrote:Someone should sticky a post like this because this question is pretty popular. Anyways, here's what I recommend/did:1. You could also do genki or ubj-whatever
1. Read a grammar guide. I personally liked Tae Kim's (http://www.guidetojapanese.org) (Maybe SRS the examples but maybe don't because I've heard they can be awkward)
2. Go through ~100-200 of smart.fm's core 2000 words. (SRS examples)
3. Read japanese! (SRS interesting/new sentences)
It's not too hard to read japanese after you know the grammar, there's just a lot of looking up stuff.
2. Or do KO2001 or go directly to 3 below.
3. Read, watch, listen to whatever you want in japanese and SRS it. Find sentences containing it (where "it" can be: kanji, word, grammar-point, expression, or even something like "こら！" kora!, whatever you like). Actually you should be listening to /watching japanese stuff now too
Also, when you read don't look up too much, just enough that it doesn't ruin the flow of the story.
Manga with furigana are good, just type the furigana with IME and you are done.
Copypaste from the internets (blogs, news, forum-posts, yahoo answers, chat, etc.) is good too.
Confused and unsure of what to do... - skeeter3 - 2009-07-23
Thanks for the great responses so far! I have looked at Tae Kim, and really like it compared to the Genki textbook that I used for the whole week I attempted formal classes. Couldn't take them! Tae Kim seems very concise and complete. I think I will simply read through the Basic and Essential, as I've read many recommend to get basics. As for SRSing the sentences and reading it all how long should it take to get through all of that? If I understand correctly there isn't a lot of vocab to worry about in order to get through Tae Kim?
Amset Wrote:2. Go through ~100-200 of smart.fm's core 2000 words. (SRS examples)Do you mean to SRS the example sentences for the 100-200 words from iKnow or just the words?
Confused and unsure of what to do... - thermal - 2009-07-23
It's up to you skeeter. There are generally 2 ways you can go.
1. Learner material
2. Real material
A popular choice after RTK1 is Kanji Odyssey which falls under learner material. Tae Kim is also learner material.
I personally believe you want to use as little learner material as you can get away with. If I was you I would read through parts 1,2,3,4 of Tae Kim, but don't study it. Just get an initial impression of Japanese grammer and then get stuck into real stuff. Manga for juniors is probably a good first step. It will have furigana and you will be able understand a lot from the pictures.
Look up words that you don't understand that seem interesting (and that come up a lot). If you are not understanding the basic grammar then look at Tae Kim again. Just remember you should only use this to point you in the right direction and allow exposure to teach you the feeling and meaning of the grammar. You can never completely translate a sentence and trying to memorise grammar definitions and translations is not a long term strategy.
I also recommend watching dramas, movies and anime and grab audio of sentences that you want to learn.
I would suggest doing both production and recognition (in that order) on any sentences you add into your SRS. So one way you see the hiragana or hear the pron and then produce the kanji/sentence. The other way you just read the sentence.
For more information on the choice between learner and real material I had a big debate with some other members on it from page 2 here: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=3044&page=2
Anyway, the reason that it is not so clear on what to do now is because everyone has their own way and there is not much agreement. You need to figure out what you think is best and then evaluate your progress. Unfortunately the way we study language is just a tiny tiny pocket of the modern language learning world. Until it gets big, which isn't likely since you can't make much money from people studying the way we do, there wont be studies finding the best way to do things, like their has been with teaching in the classroom. So you need to use your wits and figure it out.
The good news is that pretty much whatever you do, as long as you are getting a lot of exposure and putting sentences into an SRS you are going to improve quickly. The only big danger is translating Japanese sentences into English or vice versa. Like having a question as Japanese then the answer is the English translation. Try and avoid English as much as possible in your study.
Confused and unsure of what to do... - skeeter3 - 2009-07-24
thermal Wrote:I personally believe you want to use as little learner material as you can get away with. If I was you I would read through parts 1,2,3,4 of Tae Kim, but don't study it. Just get an initial impression of Japanese grammer and then get stuck into real stuff. Manga for juniors is probably a good first step. It will have furigana and you will be able understand a lot from the pictures.@Thermal
[snip]
I would suggest doing both production and recognition (in that order) on any sentences you add into your SRS. So one way you see the hiragana or hear the pron and then produce the kanji/sentence. The other way you just read the sentence.
First off, thanks for such a through post! I agree with most of what you suggested. I think that you are correct in that I'd prefer to avoid the learner material as much as possible. I don't see it as being "real Japanese" as much as native sources. I will certainly read through Tae Kim in total once (have it open in another tab now).
My problem comes with where to go from there. I am eager to get going, but fears with leaving the comfortable structured learning I've grown used to is quite disconcerting. Part of me wants to go to iKnow and do the sentences there until I feel comfortable enough to move to native sentences. The problem is when/if I will draw the line with having enough of the prepared sentences to make that crucial jump. I fear getting stuck there. My years of schooling tell me to go to the prepared sentences, but I've read on these forums that the English exposure can be detrimental to my Japanese progress. I need to just pick something and go for it. I'm off to meditate on this.
Confused and unsure of what to do... - Hinode - 2009-07-24
skeeter3 Wrote:I think that you are correct in that I'd prefer to avoid the learner material as much as possible.Ok, obviously everyone differs in their approach and what works best for them. That being said, I strongly disagree with that statement.
I tried to go from basically no knowledge of Japanese to "Real Japanese®" and it didn't work. Now, maybe I wasn't persistent enough to fight through massive walls of text I didn't understand. Maybe my method was wrong. Maybe something else didn't work out as it was supposed to. But anyway, I came to the conclusion that it's not worth the time to learn from eloquent "natural Japanese" I didn't understand.
Seeing how there was plenty of learner material I could work on that illustrate key principles of the language and key vocabulary, I invested (and am still investing) time on that instead.
If you are proficient enough to understand "real Japanese", obviously you don't need learner material. If you aren't, than learner material is just the thing that gets you up to a level where you can begin to understand real sources.
ETA: You can always add sentences from real sources in combination with pre-made ones. Or set yourself a certain point from where you start using real sources (for example after Core2000, KO Step 1).
Confused and unsure of what to do... - skeeter3 - 2009-07-24
Hinode Wrote:ETA: You can always add sentences from real sources in combination with pre-made ones. Or set yourself a certain point from where you start using real sources (for example after Core2000, KO Step 1).That's a great point you make. This seems like a really good compromise. Get a good grounding in the learner material, that is not overwhelming to the absolute beginner, while still setting a deadline/goal to keep on track. I have looked at Core2000, KO, and Smart.fm/KO lists. What material did you use Hinode? Did it serve your goals in allowing you to branch off into real Japanese when you were finished?
Confused and unsure of what to do... - Hinode - 2009-07-24
skeeter3 Wrote:I finished RTK in April, which means I'm only a few months ahead of you, but here is what I did so far.Hinode Wrote:ETA: You can always add sentences from real sources in combination with pre-made ones. Or set yourself a certain point from where you start using real sources (for example after Core2000, KO Step 1).That's a great point you make. This seems like a really good compromise. Get a good grounding in the learner material, that is not overwhelming to the absolute beginner, while still setting a deadline/goal to keep on track. I have looked at Core2000, KO, and Smart.fm/KO lists. What material did you use Hinode?
After RTK, I worked through Tae Kim's Basic Grammar and Essential Grammar (put the sentences in my SRS from the spread-sheet) one topic a day. That covers the most important grammar points + Tae Kim explains colloquial grammar as well, which is very useful in understanding manga and such. When I was done with that, I began working on the group effort smart.fm KO2001 list (again imported in anki) to build a basic vocabulary and that's what I'm still doing (covered the first 200 kanji so far). I'm doing dictation as well as reading cards so my progress is somewhat slow compared to others like BlackMacross who only do reading. There are pro's and con's to both, so it depends on your priorities. As for me, I want to be able to write, even if it isn't required for passing the JLPT.
I also add a lot of random stuff I find interesting or useful (lines from dramas/manga/games) though. When a word shows up repeatedly in something I read I also add a sentence for that in my SRS.
skeeter3 Wrote:Did it serve your goals in allowing you to branch off into real Japanese when you were finished?Weeeeell, I'm not done yet! But reading real Japanese and following a structured learning path are not mutually exclusive, thus when I don't SRS I read untranslated manga and watch j-doramas and anime and play Japanese games and KO2001 seriously got my understanding going. Of course I'm not even half-way through the first book, but I get the gist of most things I read (on the shounen level, seinen is problematic without dictionary). The words I learn from KO2001 pop up in all the things I read, which is arguably to be expected when you follow a frequency list.
My plan for now is to finish KO2001 Step 1 and then the rest of Tae Kim's guide.
Confused and unsure of what to do... - nest0r - 2009-07-24
I recommend going through Japanese the Manga Way or a similar basic grammar guide, adding the sentences for each grammar point to Anki as recognition cards and grading yourself on whether you recalled the grammar point for that sentence. As long as you've got a basic grasp of grammar, you're good to go with Kanji Odyssey/iKnow, as their sentences are basic, and with them you'll learn tonnes of readings for the kanji you just learned in RTK, reinforce your basic grammar, and be able to have clear native audio to listen to and emulate.
Is that what you're asking? I'm out of touch on this forum. I thought we all devised the best methods ages ago, but looks like the forum is so crowded with new users with creative ideas and diverse backgrounds, it's going 'round in circles (or slowly evolving spirals). ^_^
Confused and unsure of what to do... - Mcjon01 - 2009-07-24
nest0r Wrote:Is that what you're asking? I'm out of touch on this forum. I thought we all devised the best methods ages ago, but looks like the forum is so crowded with new users with creative ideas and diverse backgrounds, it's going 'round in circles (or slowly evolving spirals). ^_^Which reminds me, I need to get back to work on my Uzumaki/TTGL fanfiction.
/No, this post isn't serious.
//It would be an awful idea.
/Like all fanfiction.
Confused and unsure of what to do... - mezbup - 2009-07-24
I just finished RTK a little while ago (finally!) and was really excited to jump straight into senteces. Like is suggested here, i've been working my way through Tae Kim which has been a huge boost to my understanding. I already know like 95% of the vocab for it so that's been helpful. I've thought about going and doing KO2001 but I dunno, So far i've just jumped straight into doing native stuff and finding words I dont know/need to learn and use my dictionary's examples of the words (It's the Kanji Sono Mama DS Rakubiki Jiten dic for DS) which so far has been brilliant! I'm noticing reading getting easier and easier
Still a long way to go! But at 1000 sentences/per month can't take too long!
Confused and unsure of what to do... - Musashi - 2009-07-24
Hinode Wrote:Yea I agree with Hinode. You need to build a base for yourself first. Same like swimming, if you haven't learned how to swim, don't jump into the deep yet. I know, learning is a drag, but don't be hasty, all things in good time. Thing is with "real Japanese", it doesn't 'teach' you, if you don't understand, there is no explanation. Words, you can look up in a dictionary yes, but words in context stringed together by grammar is something you need to learn first. So give yourself some time and built a solid foundation. Ofcourse you can play around with "real Japanese" from time to time, just to see where you're at and to practise what you've learned using that learner material. If you want to jump right in though, a good way to get your toes wet is Japanese websites for kids, like educational ones etc.skeeter3 Wrote:I think that you are correct in that I'd prefer to avoid the learner material as much as possible.If you are proficient enough to understand "real Japanese", obviously you don't need learner material. If you aren't, than learner material is just the thing that gets you up to a level where you can begin to understand real sources.
Edit: I just want to stress this, learn your particles!!! Those は·が·に·へ·を·か·と·の·も·や·よ ARE important.
Confused and unsure of what to do... - mezbup - 2009-07-24
skeeter3 Wrote:Thing is with "real Japanese", it doesn't 'teach' you, if you don't understand, there is no explanation. Words, you can look up in a dictionary yes, but words in context stringed together by grammar is something you need to learn first.I agree with this and disagree with it at the same time. That is to say, I agree with this in part. I find that certain things are impossible to understand if you don't know the grammar (I.E conjugations) but other things you can pick up without knowing any particular rule for it (I.E things like "のは" constructions). The former confused the shit out of me and wasn't useful to my learning until I learned it through Tae Kim and now that my brain gets it, it's super useful to my learning! The latter, I just seem to be assimilating over time through exposure.
Confused and unsure of what to do... - Musashi - 2009-07-24
mezbup Wrote:Lol, wrong quoteskeeter3 Wrote:Thing is with "real Japanese", it doesn't 'teach' you, if you don't understand, there is no explanation. Words, you can look up in a dictionary yes, but words in context stringed together by grammar is something you need to learn first.
mezbup Wrote:I agree with this and disagree with it at the same time. That is to say, I agree with this in part. I find that certain things are impossible to understand if you don't know the grammar (I.E conjugations) but other things you can pick up without knowing any particular rule for it (I.E things like "のは" constructions). The former confused the shit out of me and wasn't useful to my learning until I learned it through Tae Kim and now that my brain gets it, it's super useful to my learning! The latter, I just seem to be assimilating over time through exposure.That's why I quoted 'teach'. But ofcourse, the more exposure, the more you get used to it and the more natural it gets, nevertheless, subtle things like のは aren't to be overlooked. I know, some things need to be learned in context/usage/situation but naturally I was refering to things like grammar and conjugations etc. and although のは is a mini-grammar I agree, some things will get natural through exposure but I suppose it can't do much harm to be well prepared. And ofcourse often you won't get the full 100% while learning new stuff, exposure to it will naturalise it.
Confused and unsure of what to do... - theasianpleaser - 2009-07-24
1. Move to the inaka in Japan.
2. Get a Japanese girlfriend/boyfriend, etc. and Japanese friends.
3. Bye-bye English.
Confused and unsure of what to do... - lagwagon555 - 2009-07-24
While I haven't exactly been compltely immeresed while learning kanji, I can definitely understand why khaztumoto reccomends immersion even while doing RTK. You do actually just pick up vocabulary and phrases. Definitely not extensively, and I've been watching with subs (while trying not to just block out my ears) which doesn't help. But you definitely do pick up phrases. Also, from watching anime intros, I've proably learned about 20 kanji readings haha. more importantly, I've grown used to all the sounds of the language, so I definitely think you should start watching and listening to as much as you can, starting now!
I don't understand why nobody uses Assimil. I'm only just past half way on RTK, but I've already started adding sentences (only 20 so far) from Assimil. But I think it's brilliant. It's like KO2001, but it's built for new Japanese learners. In other words, instead of just giving complex example sentences for every kanji, it's example sentences get progressively harder. The first lesson only consists of a few basic words and phrases, and it starts building up from there, until you get complex sentences. You learn the readings to 960 kanji, which is roughly the same as KO2001, but you learn the language at the same time, through example sentences. It also has notes at the end of every 7 lessons, which wraps up the grammar. The audio at the moment is painfully slow, but it speeds up after the first lessons.
Confused and unsure of what to do... - thermal - 2009-07-24
skeeter3 Wrote:My problem comes with where to go from there. I am eager to get going, but fears with leaving the comfortable structured learning I've grown used to is quite disconcerting. Part of me wants to go to iKnow and do the sentences there until I feel comfortable enough to move to native sentences. The problem is when/if I will draw the line with having enough of the prepared sentences to make that crucial jump. I fear getting stuck there. My years of schooling tell me to go to the prepared sentences, but I've read on these forums that the English exposure can be detrimental to my Japanese progress. I need to just pick something and go for it. I'm off to meditate on this. tongueSorry, I should have made a distinction. There is learner material, which is stuff made for learners. Then there is contextless learner material which is random sentences with no context. I believe the latter is what you really need to avoid as without a context you aren't teaching your brain when and why to use the sentence/word. Just that it exists. Exposure will get you there, but I think it is much faster doing it with sentences.
When I review a sentence I recall the context in which it was said and it reinforces why this sentence was said. Then when I am in a similar situation it just comes up. Plus the better you get the less you can rely on exposure to get something into your active vocab as you come the new stuff you learn less and less.
So, you can use learner material as long as it has context. I know Katzumoto recommends http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_in_Mangaland Maybe this would be perfect for you?
Otherwise I really think you would be fine with kids comics with full furigana. Things like doraemon. Don't forget there is nothing wrong with using a J-E dictionary until you come quite a long way, so I think you can understand real stuff like this.
Also it depends how far you want to go. If you want to get to a very high level then I think the methods I suggest are the fastest way to become a native-like speaker. If you just want a moderate amount of fluency then things like KO2001 are faster IMO.
IceCream Wrote:I actually use http://www.rogueamoeba.com/audiohijackpro/ which is mac only, but it works the same as audacity.thermal Wrote:I also recommend watching dramas, movies and anime and grab audio of sentences that you want to learn.When you do this, what do you usually do? I mean, you grab sentences using audacity right? but what do you enter into your SRS without a japanese transcription? Just the English meaning?
The more i read from people who seem to have got fluent quickly, the more it seems like SRSing sentences you really like helps most, rather than the textbooks. How picky are you with entering sentences into your SRS?
I just enter the audio into the question field and write the sentence into the answer field. I include any definitions (in Japanese) for new words in a details field that is invisible unless highlight it. I do production and recognition and in that order.
I am quite picky as to what I enter in. So much so that I have days where I watch a bunch of anime but there is nothing suitable to add to my SRS. Part of this is that I am fairly advanced too. Anyway, I choose sentences that are not too long, contain a max of 2 things I don't understand, can be heard clearly and once I check the definitions I fully understand them. I also choose sentences that contain words that are useful to me, particularly if I can use them to make jokes..
I really love adding audio because the tone of voice really conveys the context well and is fun to imitate.
Confused and unsure of what to do... - skeeter3 - 2009-07-25
Wow, great advice from everyone! My thoughts on some:
nest0r Wrote:I recommend going through Japanese the Manga Way or a similar basic grammar guide, adding the sentences for each grammar point to Anki as recognition cards and grading yourself on whether you recalled the grammar point for that sentence.I think I have that book sitting on my shelf collecting dust.
I'll have to dig it out, but that would be a great compliment to reading through Tae Kim since people say his sentences are a bit awkward. Could even go so far as to scan the example manga clips in too!mezbup Wrote:So far i've just jumped straight into doing native stuff and finding words I dont know/need to learn and use my dictionary's examples of the words (It's the Kanji Sono Mama DS Rakubiki Jiten dic for DS) which so far has been brilliant!I got a DS for the purpose of using it for Japanese learning, and that program is one of my favorites as well. I love being able to write the kanji out and get the readings/definitions. I never thought to use it for example sentences, but I certainly will now! Thanks for the tip!
thermal Wrote:Exposure will get you there, but I think it is much faster doing it with sentences.Thermal, I agree that sentences are the way to go with learning. When I use Smart.fm I plan on taking the vocab and finding a sentence that uses the word if I don't get a "good feeling" of context from the supplied sentence. Sound okay? I have gotten a hold of the raws for the first volume of the manga よつばと！. It seems like it will fit the bill.
[snip]
Otherwise I really think you would be fine with kids comics with full furigana. Things like doraemon. Don't forget there is nothing wrong with using a J-E dictionary until you come quite a long way, so I think you can understand real stuff like this.
I have tried to work a balance between learners material and native sources. Being the over compulsive planner/organizer that I am I tried to get an idea on smaller/intermediate goals from the suggestions everyone made. I don't think that I want to spend the time to go through KO2001 since it just seems like a big investment of my time when when I can learn readings in context as I come across them.
Here's a screenshot of the plan I've worked out so far: http://www.flickr.com/photos/9429040@N08/3755563210/sizes/o/. Let me know if it's feasible!
Confused and unsure of what to do... - thermal - 2009-07-25
skeeter3 Wrote:Here's a screenshot of the plan I've worked out so far: http://www.flickr.com/photos/9429040@N0 … /sizes/o/. Let me know if it's feasible!I think it's very feasible. You are aware of the dangers of English and learner materials so whilst you may not have developed the perfect method (not that there is such a thing), it's going to be good! More important than that is just continuing learning. Oh and don't forget to have fun while you are at it. Like Katz says, if you are bored just stop and do something else, but stay in Japanese.
The one thing I would say, you won't need to do RTK3 for quite a while. I've been learning with "AJATT" for about 1.5 years (and studying Japanese for about 3.5, but I only started learning kanji 1.5 years ago) and I haven't needed it. I would suggest doing it once you know words containing 80-90% of the RTK1 kanji. That way they will be firmly in your head as real Japanese and you aren't likely to mix them up with the RTK3 ones you learn. Also RTK is tough, take a breather and enjoy your kanji prowess for a while!
IceCream Wrote:Also, sticking to language learning materials isn't going to help with actually coming across with some kind of personality or style, is it?I think in a sense no. Particularly stuff like KO is pretty wooden and not very usable as is. Plus using sentences from real sources you learn more the feeling of sentences. You learn how a character who wants to appear cute for example expresses this through language. More and more ways of expressing become available as you absorb not only language but personality types and reactions. The reactions won't always be the same as the ones you might have with an English speaking friend (eg I would never tell an English speaking friend to do their best!).
But I guess also in a sense your personality is expressed by how you choose to respond to a situation, not so much in the style in which you do it. Whether you are eloquent or not you still can make the same basic choices. The fact that you are trying to encourage someone is more important that how smoothly you do it. Hmm this is getting philosophical..
Confused and unsure of what to do... - skeeter3 - 2009-07-29
An update(and maybe bit o rant
) :Read through Tae Kim's site very concise and informative. Started to do the iKnow site's lists. Hated the seeming randomness that came with the frequency list it was ordered by. Switched to the KO2001 lists, and was frustrated again with how boring it all was. Like how the lists are ordered by kanji, but couldn't enjoy it at all. I've decided to just dive into the language with native materials. At the least, I'll be enjoying myself. When I spent 3 hours today going through lists memorizing vocab, I realized I wasn't enjoying it and that I couldn't do it for a long period of time. *end rant* Wow, that feels good to get off the chest.
Confused and unsure of what to do... - QuackingShoe - 2009-07-30
That's the spirit! Down periscope! Dive! Dive! Face the murky water of native Japanese material!