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Problem with similar words in my SRS - totsubo - 2009-07-20

I'm taking a Japanese class and each day we need to memorize 10 new kanji and about 2-3 words associated with the kanji. I've been putting the words in my SRS to test (1) reading of the word, (2) production of the kanji from the reading, and (3) going from the English definition to the reading.

I'm doing (3) because I find that I often can read a Japanese word but can't remember what it means. Or, I'm trying to speak Japanese and can think of the word in English but can't think of it in Japanese.

Now I'm running into problems with Japanese words that have similar meanings or worse, similar meanings and at least one kanji in common. For example:

防止[ぼうし]する: prevention;check
予防[よぼう]する: to prevent; precaution
防[ふせ]ぐ: to prevent; to defend (against)

So I want to ask the community:

1- Am I going about this the wrong way and that is why I am having problems with these in my SRS?

2- Assuming there is nothing wrong with my method, what are some suggestions for helping me in remembering words like these?

Thanks!

Problem with similar words in my SRS - Yonosa - 2009-07-20

totsubo Wrote:I'm taking a Japanese class and each day we need to memorize 10 new kanji and about 2-3 words associated with the kanji. I've been putting the words in my SRS to test (1) reading of the word, (2) production of the kanji from the reading, and (3) going from the English definition to the reading.

I'm doing (3) because I find that I often can read a Japanese word but can't remember what it means. Or, I'm trying to speak Japanese and can think of the word in English but can't think of it in Japanese.

Now I'm running into problems with Japanese words that have similar meanings or worse, similar meanings and at least one kanji in common. For example:

防止[ぼうし]する: prevention;check
予防[よぼう]する: to prevent; precaution
防[ふせ]ぐ: to prevent; to defend (against)

So I want to ask the community:

1- Am I going about this the wrong way and that is why I am having problems with these in my SRS?

2- Assuming there is nothing wrong with my method, what are some suggestions for helping me in remembering words like these?

Thanks!
1. imo. Monodic.

Problem with similar words in my SRS - totsubo - 2009-07-20

Uh ... Could you elaborate?

Problem with similar words in my SRS - Delina - 2009-07-20

What he means is, try using a Japanese-Japanese dictionary (monolingual dictionary -> monodic). You can look up the difficult word in a J-J dictionary and put the Japanese definition and/or some example sentences showing the usage.

Put the example sentence in your recognition card, highlighting the word you are trying to remember (I make mine blue). The answer would be the Japanese definition, ideally, but since your class probably requires you to remember the English definition, too, you could also put that. So your recognition card would look like:

Front:
Word
Sentence containing word.

Back:
Definition (Japanese and/or English)

In the production card you could 'fill in the blank' - use a sentence containing your word and leave your word blank, then try to remember which word goes in the blank. The answer would be the sentence with the word filled in, also showing the definition (in Japanese and English).

Front:
Sentence containing ___.

Back:
Word
Definition (Japanese and/or English)

That's just an example of what works for me - it may take a few tries to find out what works best for you. But using a sentence in the front of your card should help you tell the difference between similar words based on their usage (which is great, because then you will become familiar with them in context and will be less likely to get them confused when you come across them in real Japanese).

Problem with similar words in my SRS - kazelee - 2009-07-20

What sort of problems are you having in regard to the words with similar meanings?

Problem with similar words in my SRS - totsubo - 2009-07-20

The problem I am havin is that when I see the English definition I can't tell which of the three words are the correct answer since, in a way, all three are correct answers.

Even using a Japanese definition would not help since they would also be very similar. And anyway if I could understand the nuances in a Japanese dictionary definition I wouldn't need to study Japanese Smile

so the problem is that my either my cards are not well formed or that these words are so similar that any card good enough to help in remembering would Ned to be written in Japanese and at a level so high that only a native speaker could use them?

Problem with similar words in my SRS - blackmacros - 2009-07-20

Your problem is going from English-->Japanese. As you've already realised, a single english word can have many viable translations in Japanese. Further, it sounds like you're also just doing word-->definition in your cards (eg. 犬-->dog and dog-->犬 and いぬ-->犬/dog seems like the 3 formats you are using. Am I right that this is the sort of format you use)? The problem with these methods is, essentially, lack of context which results in ambiguity.

You are far better off going from a Japanese sentence --> Reading + Meaning and dropping the English-->Japanese entirely.

For example instead of

Question:prevention;check
Answer: 防止[ぼうし]する

You would be better off doing:

Question-　
Sentence: 銃を使った犯罪を防止するために、銃を規制する。
Answer-
Reading: じゅうをつかったはんざいをぼうしするために、じゅうをきせいする。
Meaning: In order to prevent gun crimes, they regulate guns.

This is how most people on this forum tend to review cards. Using sentences instead of just single words is preferable because you see the context the word is used in.

Problem with similar words in my SRS - totsubo - 2009-07-20

This makes a lot of sense but I have one question. With this sentence method what do I test myself on? Obvous is testin on going from the sentence with kanji to the reading but how do you test the rest?

Do you test from sentence to English meaning and vice-versa?

And how do you score yourself, do have to be able to produce the English sentence 100% or only something close? Also would you eventually be able to produce the English meaning just from rote since you've seen it so many times and you can e wntually just guess atthe meaning?

Jc

Problem with similar words in my SRS - blackmacros - 2009-07-20

You need to worry less about the English meaning Wink

Yes its important to understand what the sentence means. But you don't need to be able to rote memorize or test the exact English definition. Any one sentence, just like any word, can have many possible correct translations.

What you want to be testing with that card format is:

Reading: You can choose to fail the card if you can't read the compound you're focusing on, or fail it if there is anything whatsoever you have forgotten how to read. Your choice

Word Meaning: Make sure you understand the meaning of each word in the sentence. The same advice goes as before though- don't fuss over getting it exactly right. As long as you know the general purpose and meaning of the word thats ok.

Sentence Meaning: You should also be able to understand the sentence as a whole. Once again, don't shoot for a word-perfect memorization of the translation here. As long as you understand what's going on, thats ok.

If you can do all 3 of those things, pass the card. If you can't, fail it.

Problem with similar words in my SRS - totsubo - 2009-07-21

I think everything you say makes sense but ... I'm a big fan of the n+1 principle and it seems to be violate here. This is the reason I have trouble undertanding how to use sentences for creating cards, or for that matter am still no. Convinced that using sentences with an SRS is a good thing.

Do you feel that n+1 doesn't apply here or that perhaps it is being violated?

Problem with similar words in my SRS - avparker - 2009-07-21

I think n+1 should still apply.

If the word is new, use a sentence with grammar and other words you already know.
If the grammar is new, use a sentence with words you already know.

If you don't know much grammar, and you want to learn a new word, your sentences will have to be simple, and it might be hard finding realistic sentences.
In that case, its probably best to learn some new grammar first, so try Tae Kim ( http://www.guidetojapanese.org/ ).
If you already know the grammar, n+1 isn't being violated as long as you only add one new word per sentence.

Problem with similar words in my SRS - blackmacros - 2009-07-21

I don't think its being violated, as long as you pick your sentences wisely. Just make sure you pick a sentence that only introduces one new word or grammar point or whatever. Then its n+1 (or i+1 or however you want to call it).

Sometimes its quite difficult to find a sentence like that. So what you can do is split a single sentence into multiple cards. Notice how I bolded 防止? That indicates its the compound you want to specifically test. You can split a sentence into multiple cards and highlight/bold a different word on each one, if a sentence has multiple new points. If you do that, when you test the card only fail it if you can't remember the reading/meaning of that specific bolded word.