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+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: Learning resources (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-9.html)
+--- Thread: Roadmap to Japanese (/thread-3466.html)
Roadmap to Japanese - EyeballHanako - 2009-07-09
I'm just starting to study Japanese and after looking over this forum the last few days it seems like it is becoming increasingly more daunting. I thought I'd be able to learn enough within a few months to be able to read at a decent pace and look up new words as I go, but it seems like people spend half a year or more just learning enough kanji to get started on the language proper.
I was wondering if anyone could provide me with some tips on what sort of resources to use, and in what order? A sort of roadmap to success. I tried looking for information on the forums, but I found so much information it's getting kind of hard to really know where to start.
For the record, right now I'm studying RtK1 (although I have all 3) and sentence mining Tae Kim's guide into Anki. I'll probably also mine http://jisho.org/, since I don't think it would be hard to automate the process and the number of sentences on the site is excessive. Should I wait until I have a good grasp of kanji before mining sentences with it, or jump right into it?
When I finish RtK1 I plan on doing 2 and 3, but I've seen Kanji in Context and Kanji Odyssey 2001 both mentioned as well. Do either of these cover similar material, and would I be better served replacing any of the RtK books with them? I'm getting the impression going to KO after RtK1 might be worthwhile. If so, should I ignore RtK2/3?
Also, I've seen these mentioned quite a few times:
iKnow
Japanese Pod
All About Particles
Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar
Japanese for Everyone
books from Taeko Kamiya
Should I be using any of these now, or in the future? AAP looks worth mining. I still don't really know enough about these resources to know what's useful for what, so I'm hoping to benefit from others' experience.
Roadmap to Japanese - mentat_kgs - 2009-07-09
EyeballHanako Wrote:I thought I'd be able to learn enough within a few months to be able to read at a decent pace and look up new words as I go,You thought right. Some people start to read manga soon after finishing RTK. With the dictionary, of course, and using an SRS.
EyeballHanako Wrote:but it seems like people spend half a year or more just learning enough kanji to get started on the language proper.Not everybody. Some go for textbooks, some go for natural text.
RTK can be done in 30 days, but most people do it in a bit more time. I did it in 3 months, for instance. After that you can do what you want. It is really not a lot of time, considering the benefit you get.
Roadmap to Japanese - Tobberoth - 2009-07-09
In THEORY, you can start reading Japanese after you've finished RtK1 and Tae Kim. Just be prepared: You will have to look up words constantly, over and over, for quite a long time.
Therefor, a lot of people try to learn more Japanese in a structured way (though others simply jump right in and start to read stuff, it's definitely possible if you have the dedication). Such structured approaches include the ones you listed, iKnow and KO2001 being the most popular ones. Basically, they let you learn the most common and important words without having to attempt to read things which contain way too hard sentences. If you finish KO2001, you shouldn't have any problem reading an average manga, without even looking words up (expect words specific to the topic of the manga, obviously).
Roadmap to Japanese - Musashi - 2009-07-09
Oh no don't start with Japanese! It'll save you a lot of time!
just kiddding!Learning a language is not a thing you can rush and do in a couple of months especially if it's one that's not related to your mother tongue and also using a different script. To be able to read within a couple of months and look up words as you go for someone that's just starting out might not even be possible simply because there is more to a language than just 'words'. And written material doesn't have the starter in mind, everything will get thrown at you at once (ok that sounded more scary than it is hehe). Unless you want to read just the kiddie stuff (even that is not an easy feat cuz kids have their own special language forms and words). I think the best is buying a good Japanese learning book (one that you're comfortable with and like) since everything is in there to get you started. There are indeed a lot of good sources on the internet which also do the same but one can sometimes get a bit lost not knowing where to start, what to learn etc. Since a book is written with a structured approach and method and builds up step by step, I think it's best for somebody who's just starting. Then I would use RTK as a supplement and a base for vocab.
iKnow has a lot of great study material and although I can't say it should be the main focus, it's good for vocab and sentences again as a supplement.
JapanesePod is nice for listening, since the podcasts are not that long and easy to listen too. I'd recommend listening to it from time to time to get into the listening part.
All in all, I'd recommend your main focus to be a good Japanese learning book, and use the other sources as supplement. Sometimes if you follow to many different sources, it becomes difficult to focus and you might get lost. Learning a language is not an easy thing already and not having a structured approach only makes it more difficult. A good book will focus your attention on the basics and guides you all the way till the point where you're comfortable with the language and can create your own study pattern. Give it time and don't give up, good luck!
Roadmap to Japanese - Musashi - 2009-07-09
IceCream Wrote:* KO2001 is absolutely irreplaceable, really really good... but i haven't used Kanji in context... It doesn't teach you to write the Kanji, just read them. But if you wanted to you could learn to write through this instead. (though RTK is better, i think)Hmm, Icecream, I've been seeing Kanji Odyssey2001 pop up quite some times in posts, I just did a quick check about it and I saw it's a kanji learning book with example compounds and what I especially like is that is also has example sentences with it. But I'm not a beginner anymore and learning for JLPT 2, so would it still be of use even if I get book level 2 or 3? What makes it so great?
Kanji in Context seems interesting too...
Roadmap to Japanese - Elphalpo - 2009-07-09
Musashi Wrote:Hmm, Icecream, I've been seeing Kanji Odyssey2001 pop up quite some times in posts, I just did a quick check about it and I saw it's a kanji learning book with example compounds and what I especially like is that is also has example sentences with it. But I'm not a beginner anymore and learning for JLPT 2, so would it still be of use even if I get book level 2 or 3? What makes it so great?If you're approaching JLPT 2, then it might be too easy for you. The vocab and especially the grammar used in the example sentences are generally pretty basic. However, it does have a fair amount of business and political vocabulary, so if you're lacking in that area it could still be useful. I haven't used Kanji in Context, but from the way people here have described it it seems to use a similar method to Kanji Odyssey while covering more advanced material, so that might be more appropriate for you.
Kanji in Context seems interesting too...
Roadmap to Japanese - Transparent_Aluminium - 2009-07-09
I also think that Kanji Odyssey would be too basic. I recommend using Kanji in Context instead.
Roadmap to Japanese - FutureBlues - 2009-07-09
Kanji in Context and 2001 Kanji Odyessy cover material that basically overlaps, however, Kanji in Context is more thorough and preps you on far more readings using more advanced vocabulary and grammar than 2001KO.
2001KO consists of 2 books and a CD that covers of a list of 2001 kanji (500 in the first book) with example compounds, along with 3 or 4 short, example sentences that cover the reading of the kanji you're learning in context. These sentences have been criticized as being too short or "unnatural" (although, I personally don't feel this way), when they're really just a little simple. The grammar is pretty basic, but for someone who's learning on their own coming from Tae Kim and RtK, without any formal Japanese exposure, I think KO is a great next step.
Kanji in Context, on the other hand, covers the same thing using 3 books. One is basically a vocabulary reference of about 8000 words covering all the joyo kanji (everything you need to know for JLPT1) along with 2 workbooks that cover example sentences using the kanji (similar to KO's sentences, but often with more advanced and intermediate grammar, thus more difficult for a beginner) as well as synonyms, antonyms and helpful comparisons and lists (of related words and/or ways to use particularly common words that weren't covered in the reference volume).
The main difference is that 2001KO is a lot easier for a beginner, as Kanji in Context has some sentences and examples that may be somewhat challenging even for intermediate and in some cases, advanced students. Kanji in Context also covers far more readings over the course of the text, as 2001KO leaves out uncommon readings at the expense of drilling the common ones into your head, while KiC tends to list the most common words, which often cover a large variety of readings (sometimes all of them for any given kanji), including historical and special terms you might find in science, biology, etc.
I'm just at JLPT2 level from natural exposure and class time in college, and I found 2001 KO just a little easy for me. The sentences, while good for drilling readings, were simplistic and boring, whereas Kanji in Context is both interesting and more thorough. I bought both and ended up sticking with Kanji in Context.
Roadmap to Japanese - Tobberoth - 2009-07-09
IceCream Wrote:The third sentence is 円安で日本企業の輸出が増えた, which is a bit of a joke for a total beginner...Which, in terms of the current discussion, it quite hilarious, being a perfect example of (somewhat simple) JLPT2 sentence, 企画 being a JLPT2 word (円安 isn't even on the JLPT word lists).
Roadmap to Japanese - erlog - 2009-07-09
Tobberoth Wrote:Up to 20% of the vocabulary on any given JLPT can be from outside the wordlists.IceCream Wrote:The third sentence is 円安で日本企業の輸出が増えた, which is a bit of a joke for a total beginner...Which, in terms of the current discussion, it quite hilarious, being a perfect example of (somewhat simple) JLPT2 sentence, 企画 being a JLPT2 word (円安 isn't even on the JLPT word lists).
Roadmap to Japanese - mafried - 2009-07-10
Or to summarize,
* Do KO2001 if your goal is Japanese literacy just after finishing RTK (with no prior Japanese).
* Do KiC if you have some experience and are reading or speaking at a beginner-intermediate level or better, or if you need the JLPT vocabulary.
Roadmap to Japanese - baylin - 2009-07-10
Sorry if this has been answered before but I hear a lot of discussion on KO2001 and I'm wondering which is generally used more by this forum, the 2 separate books, the ebook/audio cd, or both. The ebook has a pretty hefty price so I've been leaning towards buying the 2 books instead, unless the ebook is significantly better to use. Right now I'm focusing more on literacy but I'd imagine having the audio plus the option to turn on/off furigana would be very helpful.
Roadmap to Japanese - mafried - 2009-07-10
The ebook gets you the audio. I don't think many people here actually use the book (or ebook) except to get access to the spreadsheets and extract the audio.